Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
Current time: March 28, 2024, 6:21 am

Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Free Will Debate
#21
RE: Free Will Debate
(November 23, 2021 at 4:21 pm)Jehanne Wrote: Free will cannot exist absolutely unless one is willing to say that all epileptics are choosing to have their seizures or that Alzheimer's patients are choosing to forget the names of their grandchildren.

This is absolutely silly.
I don't have an anger problem, I have an idiot problem.
Reply
#22
RE: Free Will Debate
@ Brian.

We all qualify as outside frames of reference for each other. It actually should be pretty easy to demonstrate this free will business. The trouble is that when we go looking we find predisposition, circumstance, hard wiring, and conditioned response.

The space for free will, if it does exist in the human animal, seems exceedingly small.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#23
RE: Free Will Debate
Adults (and, to a lesser degree children IMO) need be held responsible for our actions, including by ourselves, or else bad behaviour would doubtless run riot like wildfire and society as we know it would descend into total anarchy. Is there free will? Probably not, unless there's some voodoo magic sky leprechaun pulling the strings of existence. That in no way affects the first sentence of this post however. Is it the apotheosis of irony that we rational atheistic ground apes need "live this lie?" Almost certainly. Laughter...that's the answer. Have a nice day.
Reply
#24
RE: Free Will Debate
Not having a free will doesn’t prevent us from holding people accountable. Nor do we need to live the lie to do so. Frankly, a better understanding of human behavior…say…in the case of incompetents, has helped us to hold people accountable in ways that aren’t pure punitive vengeance seeking.

We may fine a person for stealing a loaf of bread when they’re starving….but we don’t cut off their hands. It won’t stop them from committing another crime of desperation anyway.

The fantasy of crime being an issue of bad people freely willing this or that has been a disaster, historically speaking.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#25
RE: Free Will Debate
(November 24, 2021 at 7:26 am)brewer Wrote:
(November 23, 2021 at 4:21 pm)Jehanne Wrote: Free will cannot exist absolutely unless one is willing to say that all epileptics are choosing to have their seizures or that Alzheimer's patients are choosing to forget the names of their grandchildren.

This is absolutely silly.

Why?
Reply
#26
RE: Free Will Debate
(November 24, 2021 at 8:16 am)Jehanne Wrote:
(November 24, 2021 at 7:26 am)brewer Wrote: This is absolutely silly.

Why?

Because epilepsy and dementia are disease/disorder states, independent of conscious thought. Could you argue that there is no absolute free will because of metastatic brain cancer? It effects the brain also.
I don't have an anger problem, I have an idiot problem.
Reply
#27
RE: Free Will Debate
It's free will when I make the choice and it is determinism when the choice was not mine. Once I figure out who I am, that first sentence will make sense.
<insert profound quote here>
Reply
#28
RE: Free Will Debate
(November 24, 2021 at 8:16 am)Jehanne Wrote:
(November 24, 2021 at 7:26 am)brewer Wrote: This is absolutely silly.

Why?

free will is not omnipotent will.    Is an epileptic free to will him/herself to stop having seizures even if such will does not actually affect his/her actual seizures?   If so, then that implies room for free will without implying the will found within is actually free.
Reply
#29
RE: Free Will Debate
(November 24, 2021 at 7:32 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: @ Brian.

We all qualify as outside frames of reference for each other.  It actually should be pretty easy to demonstrate this free will business.  The trouble is that when we go looking we find predisposition, circumstance, hard wiring, and conditioned response.

The space for free will, if it does exist in the human animal, seems exceedingly small.

But we’re all in the same frame of reference regarding the Does-free-will-exist question. Expecting that to determine the answers is like expecting the rats in a maze to have a confab as to the meaning of the experiment. It’s not possible for us to determine if we’re even in the maze at all. It would take a rat standing outside the maze to make that realization.

Boru
‘But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods or no gods. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.’ - Thomas Jefferson
Reply
#30
RE: Free Will Debate
(November 24, 2021 at 11:48 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:
(November 24, 2021 at 7:32 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: @ Brian.

We all qualify as outside frames of reference for each other.  It actually should be pretty easy to demonstrate this free will business.  The trouble is that when we go looking we find predisposition, circumstance, hard wiring, and conditioned response.

The space for free will, if it does exist in the human animal, seems exceedingly small.

But we’re all in the same frame of reference regarding the Does-free-will-exist question. Expecting that to determine the answers is like expecting the rats in a maze to have a confab as to the meaning of the experiment. It’s not possible for us to determine if we’re even in the maze at all. It would take a rat standing outside the maze to make that realization.

Boru

They are actually aware of what is going on:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_C._Tolman
Reply



Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  Debate Invitation John 6IX Breezy 3 661 September 1, 2019 at 2:05 pm
Last Post: John 6IX Breezy
Thumbs Up VOTE HERE: Final four questions for the Christian Debate vulcanlogician 43 4418 May 18, 2018 at 10:23 am
Last Post: Edwardo Piet
  1st Call for Christian Only Debate: Our Role on AF Neo-Scholastic 132 16630 May 4, 2018 at 12:11 pm
Last Post: The Grand Nudger
  The Definitive Post On The Free Will v. Determinism Debate BrianSoddingBoru4 17 3192 September 3, 2016 at 11:20 pm
Last Post: Arkilogue
  Debate Challenge TruthisGod 127 19027 November 20, 2015 at 2:13 am
Last Post: Neo-Scholastic
  Hello, Anyone interested in a debate? Anima 355 76948 July 8, 2015 at 4:43 pm
Last Post: Anima
  Moral realism vs moral anti-realism debate is a moot point Pizza 1 1024 March 7, 2015 at 8:13 pm
Last Post: CapnAwesome
  Discussion on debate between Esquilax and His_Majesty. Esquilax 169 30462 November 16, 2014 at 2:43 am
Last Post: Minimalist
  Can you help me debate better? Doggey75 20 3733 April 2, 2014 at 8:37 pm
Last Post: psychoslice
  Philosophical help with a Christian debate paulhe 25 7480 September 22, 2013 at 9:08 pm
Last Post: Faith No More



Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)