Russia and Ukraine

[WinterHold]

Well, it's apparent that some people here think that if the US does something it is wrong and the results are our fault.

If the US does nothing, whatever goes wrong is our fault.

If another country does something, it's still the fault of the US.

Russia is riling shit up...it has to be the fault of the US, amiright?

Not taking a decision is in itself a very big decision; eg: seeing your brother raping and killing people but decide not to take any measures.

The U.S is morally bankrupt because time after time it chose to remain silent.

It's very ironic to see the White House giving us a headache about a matter, but swallows its tongue in the face of another matter.

And yes. The Ukraine was a part of Russia TBH. It even had the infamous Soviet Chernobyl nuclear reactor.

The bigger problem is that Putin is not a nice man; we saw what he does to people in Syria.
What depresses me is that we Muslims are left with either the European+American choice or Gog & Magog (Russia + China) choice.

Turkey is caught between the jaws of these bloodthirsty beasts; so as poor Ukrainian civilians.

But we tasted the darkness of both superpowers in Syria, Iraq and Afghanistan.

[Anomalocaris]

There goes civility, I guess.

---

I always thought I was just a average Joe until I realized how much you guys all sucked compared to me

Jesus christ, how did I miss this?  Okay Ahri...okay.

Look, maybe you are an average joe - but that wouldn't say anything promising about ukraine's future, russias future, our future in the us, the west in general....and probably isn't an omen of good fortune wherever you're from, either.

i would worry much more about how many nuclear warheads other people think is necessary to keep us from interfering in their existential concerns than the future of Ukraine. 

If ukraine wanted to continue to exist, it should not clambered to join NATO.   poking a finger in the eye of the Goliath standing next to you in the hope the a distant giant will risk his own nuckear immolation to come save you does not suggest the world would be safer because Ukraine remains independent and a democracy.

think of it as a a modern day equivalent or serbia on the eve of WWI when everyone shed tears for its “democracy”.

---

I suspect that powerful people, especially if they're actually powerful, can secure their existential interests without invading Ukraine or anywhere else.  Something along those lines may be their pretext for war, but that's all it is.  Pretext.

no, they are powerful because they can invade ukraine to secure their existential interests.

[WinterHold]

There goes civility, I guess.

---

Jesus christ, how did I miss this?  Okay Ahri...okay.

Look, maybe you are an average joe - but that wouldn't say anything promising about ukraine's future, russias future, our future in the us, the west in general....and probably isn't an omen of good fortune wherever you're from, either.

i would worry much more about how many nuclear warheads other people think is necessary to keep us from interfering in their existential concerns than the future of Ukraine. 

If ukraine wanted to continue to exist, it should not clambered to join NATO.   poking a finger in the eye of the Goliath standing next to you in the hope the a distant giant will risk his own nuckear immolation to come save you does not suggest the world would be safer of the ukraine as it is would be good for the safety of the world to continue to exist.

The west uses Ukraine as a "trench" in front of Russia, just like they used the Jews as a "trench" against Ottomans in the past.

History repeats itself.

[The Architect Of Fate]

Not taking a decision is in itself a very big decision; eg: seeing your brother raping and killing people but decide not to take any measures.

The U.S is morally bankrupt because time after time it chose to remain silent.

It's very ironic to see the White House giving us a headache about a matter, but swallows its tongue in the face of another matter.

And yes. The Ukraine was a part of Russia TBH. It even had the infamous Soviet Chernobyl nuclear reactor.

The bigger problem is that Putin is not a nice man; we saw what he does to people in Syria.
What depresses me is that we Muslims are left with either the European+American choice or Gog & Magog (Russia + China) choice.

Turkey is caught between the jaws of these bloodthirsty beasts; so as poor Ukrainian civilians.

But we tasted the darkness of both superpowers in Syria, Iraq and Afghanistan.

Yet another display of your total ignorance of reality 

---

The west uses Ukraine as a "trench" in front of Russia, just like they used the Jews as a "trench" against Ottomans in the past.

History repeats itself.

And again 

[The Grand Nudger]

no, they are powerful because they can invade ukraine to secure their existential interests.

I probably have a different idea of power than you do.  Or, if on the odd chance we're agreed on what power is - it's acceptable use when possessed.  

One thing, from all of this, I think is certain.  There will have to be a re-envisioning of the world order in light of this (or the next thing).  It's a test of the legend of putin, and of russian ascendancy.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Well, it's apparent that some people here think that if the US does something it is wrong and the results are our fault.

If the US does nothing, whatever goes wrong is our fault.

If another country does something, it's still the fault of the US.

Russia is riling shit up...it has to be the fault of the US, amiright?

Not taking a decision is in itself a very big decision; eg: seeing your brother raping and killing people but decide not to take any measures.

The U.S is morally bankrupt because time after time it chose to remain silent.

It's very ironic to see the White House giving us a headache about a matter, but swallows its tongue in the face of another matter.

And yes. The Ukraine was a part of Russia TBH. It even had the infamous Soviet Chernobyl nuclear reactor.

The bigger problem is that Putin is not a nice man; we saw what he does to people in Syria.
What depresses me is that we Muslims are left with either the European+American choice or Gog & Magog (Russia + China) choice.

Turkey is caught between the jaws of these bloodthirsty beasts; so as poor Ukrainian civilians.

But we tasted the darkness of both superpowers in Syria, Iraq and Afghanistan.

Please be quiet. Grownups are talking.

Boru

[The Grand Nudger]

..and the US was part of Britain, which probably owned whatever islamist shithole you come from at some point or another, Winter.

So what. We either insist on the right of a people to self determination, or we do not. Ukraine is being invaded by Russia.

[Anomalocaris]

no, they are powerful because they can invade ukraine to secure their existential interests.

I probably have a different idea of power than you do.  Or, if on the odd chance we're agreed on what power is - it's acceptable use when possessed.  

One thing, from all of this, I think is certain.  There will have to be a re-envisioning of the world order in light of this (or the next thing).  It's a test of the legend of putin, and of russian ascendancy.

russia is not ascendant.    she just made her own decline much slower.   demographically and economically russia is moribund, having a negative population growth rate, poor infrastructure and poor industry and industrial organization.    her relative strength compare to leading powers will undoubtedly continue to slowly decline.   But she still has the ability to prevent others from accelerating her decline.

incorporating ukraine won’t help.  ukraine’s demographics crisis is much more dire than Russia’s own. 

However she has some very valuable things which she could parley into a partnership with up and coming powers such as china.   natural resource, obviously, direct access to most of euroasia through interior lines of communication that is immune to interference by American sea power,  a education system that remain very high quality and produce more STEM graduates, and arguably graduates of higher average quality, then American or European universities, and expertise in elite fields of military technology that does not flow naturally out of general state of economic and industrial debrlipememt, and which would be time consuming for up and coming powers like china to replicate by themselves.

our effort to pry ukraine from russia in all likelihood just made a major contribution towards adding Russia to a china centric block.    Does that hurt democracy more or less than refusing to let Ukraine join NATO?

[The Grand Nudger]

IDK, I think this might accelerate that decline. I doubt that china, in the end, has any interest in giving a competitor for superpower status any better of a deal than we might. They're just as likely to wait until putin puts russias dick in a meatgrinder before they pull the rug out as we would be.

[arewethereyet]

Well, it's apparent that some people here think that if the US does something it is wrong and the results are our fault.

If the US does nothing, whatever goes wrong is our fault.

If another country does something, it's still the fault of the US.

Russia is riling shit up...it has to be the fault of the US, amiright?

Not taking a decision is in itself a very big decision; eg: seeing your brother raping and killing people but decide not to take any measures.

The U.S is morally bankrupt because time after time it chose to remain silent.

It's very ironic to see the White House giving us a headache about a matter, but swallows its tongue in the face of another matter.

And yes. The Ukraine was a part of Russia TBH. It even had the infamous Soviet Chernobyl nuclear reactor.

The bigger problem is that Putin is not a nice man; we saw what he does to people in Syria.
What depresses me is that we Muslims are left with either the European+American choice or Gog & Magog (Russia + China) choice.

Turkey is caught between the jaws of these bloodthirsty beasts; so as poor Ukrainian civilians.

But we tasted the darkness of both superpowers in Syria, Iraq and Afghanistan.

Please tell us about your loving, caring, gentle country.