Russia and Ukraine

[emjay]

We ought to do whatever we can to prevent a third world war. With no exceptions.

And by 'we' I mean us humans on the side of Goodness who can also do anything about it

Personally, I stay out of politics.

Impersonally, I'm very against WW3. Personally, I can't do anything to prevent it. Unfortunately.

Usually I don't get too involved in politics either, or at least not in talking/arguing about it, but I think this is important to talk about. Indeed Zelenskyy appealed in one of his latest videos for the West to get dialogues going... to talk about it... so it's the least we/I can do I think. In any case I'm feeling the increasing need to vent/get things off my chest, so, better out than in.

[GUBU]

Again, War is a continuation of politics by other means.   Push a state with means to wage violence to the point where existential concern can’t be address by politics short of war, politics will continue under the guise of war.

I must have not paid enough attention... What did Ukraine do to push Russia into invading it?

It existed. That's all the excuse Putain needed.

[HappySkeptic]

Putin says sanctions are an act of war. If we are already at war with Putin, why not have a no-fly zone? Why not bomb Russian troop convoys?

But of course, we aren't at war.

I actually think Putin could be crazy enough to drop nukes, if he is on the edge of losing power. I think he is a psychopath. If he can't win, he'll make sure nobody can win.

This is why nuclear arms are madness. They cannot be used by sane people, even during war, but one day they will be used by insane people.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

I must have not paid enough attention... What did Ukraine do to push Russia into invading it?

It existed.  That's all the excuse Putain needed.

Ukraine does not pose an existential threat to Russia, and hasn’t since it got rid of its nukes. The possibility of Ukraine joining NATO and getting nukes again is not an existential threat. If Ukraine does join NATO and gets nukes at some point, it would still not necessarily be an existential threat, as the tactical weapons they are likely to be supplied with would be neither numerous enough or powerful enough to destroy Russia.

Putin using that possibility for the invasion is laughable, as the are already State actors with the capability of destroying Russia (but at a nightmarishly high cost). If that concern was legitimate, Putin would have attacked the US, France, Great Britain, China or India.

Boru

[pocaracas]

I must have not paid enough attention... What did Ukraine do to push Russia into invading it?

The US pushed Russia into invading Ukraine by making it clear Ukraine joining the nato can mean american medium and intermediate rate nuclear weapons can be deployed to Ukraine, which largely nullifies Russia’s nuclear deterrence by allow a strike to hit Moscow and Russian nuclear sites with less than 4-5 minutes of warning.

Yeah... I heard that weak sauce excuse, but it makes no sense.
Why is Russia allowed to be so devastated by the potential for weapons near its borders, while... it has those same or worse weapons at the ready to strike anywhere in Europe?
If it looks like a double standard, it's because it is.

You can's accuse, judge and execute others of wrongdoing something that you yourself are doing.

This reason also defies logic considering how Estonia Latvia and Lithuania are NATO members and have borders with Russia and are somewhat closer to the two larger Russian cities (maybe there is a spot in Ukraine that is closer to Moscow than any of these, but not by much).


So... how did Ukraine push Russia into invading it?

---

If you were to tell me that Ukraine has uranium ore that is super valuable in a post-coal, post-oil, post-gas energy economy... now that I could believe.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co...m_reserves



But this is no credible and "fair" basis (as in, defensible by the propaganda machine) for invading a sovereign country.
But it does tie in neatly with them seizing the nuclear power stations.

---

---

It existed.  That's all the excuse Putain needed.

Ukraine does not pose an existential threat to Russia, and hasn’t since it got rid of its nukes. The possibility of Ukraine joining NATO and getting nukes again is not an existential threat. If Ukraine does join NATO and gets nukes at some point, it would still not necessarily be an existential threat, as the tactical weapons they are likely to be supplied with would be neither numerous enough or powerful enough to destroy Russia.

Putin using that possibility for the invasion is laughable, as the are already State actors with the capability of destroying Russia (but at a nightmarishly high cost). If that concern was legitimate, Putin would have attacked the US, France, Great Britain, China or India.

Boru

Don't forget Pakistan.
How can Putin trust those who harboured the Taliban who once got some assistance from the US to fight against Russian forces when Afghanistan was invaded?

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

The US pushed Russia into invading Ukraine by making it clear Ukraine joining the nato can mean american medium and intermediate rate nuclear weapons can be deployed to Ukraine, which largely nullifies Russia’s nuclear deterrence by allow a strike to hit Moscow and Russian nuclear sites with less than 4-5 minutes of warning.

Yeah... I heard that weak sauce excuse, but it makes no sense.
Why is Russia allowed to be so devastated by the potential for weapons near its borders, while... it has those same or worse weapons at the ready to strike anywhere in Europe?
If it looks like a double standard, it's because it is.

You can's accuse, judge and execute others of wrongdoing something that you yourself are doing.

This reason also defies logic considering how Estonia Latvia and Lithuania are NATO members and have borders with Russia and are somewhat closer to the two larger Russian cities (maybe there is a spot in Ukraine that is closer to Moscow than any of these, but not by much).


So... how did Ukraine push Russia into invading it?

---

If you were to tell me that Ukraine has uranium ore that is super valuable in a post-coal, post-oil, post-gas energy economy... now that I could believe.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co...m_reserves



But this is no credible and "fair" basis (as in, defensible by the propaganda machine) for invading a sovereign country.
But it does tie in neatly with them seizing the nuclear power stations.

---

---

Ukraine does not pose an existential threat to Russia, and hasn’t since it got rid of its nukes. The possibility of Ukraine joining NATO and getting nukes again is not an existential threat. If Ukraine does join NATO and gets nukes at some point, it would still not necessarily be an existential threat, as the tactical weapons they are likely to be supplied with would be neither numerous enough or powerful enough to destroy Russia.

Putin using that possibility for the invasion is laughable, as the are already State actors with the capability of destroying Russia (but at a nightmarishly high cost). If that concern was legitimate, Putin would have attacked the US, France, Great Britain, China or India.

Boru

Don't forget Pakistan.
How can Putin trust those who harboured the Taliban who once got some assistance from the US to fight against Russian forces when Afghanistan was invaded?

Thank you - I did indeed forget Pakistan.

Boru

[The Architect Of Fate]

This meme fits in this thread too 

[Fake Messiah]

This is Oleg Fedko, his wife Irina and daughter Sofia. They were fleeing Kherson, Ukraine. With them, their infant son Ivan, and Oleg's parents.

All six were shot and killed by Russian soldiers after putting their hands up and begging not to be shot with children.



https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/m...n-invasion

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article...atrol.html

[Foxaèr]

Where's an international assassin to get rid of Putin when you need one?

[Deesse23]

This is Oleg Fedko, his wife Irina and daughter Sofia. They were fleeing Kherson, Ukraine. With them, their infant son Ivan, and Oleg's parents.

All six were shot and killed by Russian soldiers after putting their hands up and begging not to be shot with children.



https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/m...n-invasion

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article...atrol.html

But, but...it was "necessary" to kill them!!! Imagine noone shitting his pants over Russias nukes otherwise.
Im (not so much) sorry, Oleg, Irina and Sofia, but, you know, its the USA anyway who pushed some russian soldier killing you. Please remember that.