Russia and Ukraine

[Leonardo17]

Before the war started, it was universally acknowledged that Ukraine was one of the most corrupt countries in Europe.

And that justifies invasion?
Russia is the single more corrupt country than Ukraine.
Can we invade now?

It has banned at least 10 opposition parties from standing in elections and made large parts of its population into second class citizens. 

And that justifies an invasion?
Putin effectively has eliminated all opposition not by banning, but by assassination and show trials.
Can we invade now?

Again: Be carefull with intoxication (or misleading arguments or information)
 
Ukraine wasn’t corrupt at all. Russia tried to subvert it internally with Viktor Yanukovych who was the Pro-Russian President of Ukraine before Petro Poroshenko (The predecessor of Vlodimyr Zelensky). They wanted to turn it into a Belarussian-like puppet-state. When it failed they declared war.
 
Reason: If a successful democratic state is allowed to exist in close countries like Belarus or Russia, this will most probably spread to Russia and disrupt the power of the Russian Mafia and of the Russian Oligarch (and of the Putin Regime too). So they cannot allow this to happen their “zone of influence” must be dictatorships or fake democracies in which all dissidents are eliminated. Ukraine did not fall into this category so they became “Nazis”.

[Leonardo17]

Reminds me of a guy in another forum. Really hateful against his homeland, also living abroad. Making the most egregious and silly claims about his home country being fascist and oppressive.

I "tickeld" him until it finally burst out of him: His father was a member of the east german army. After the re-unification he got sacked like so many. Had no or almost no pension, and that triggered his son into an unquenchable hate for (western) Germany. He finally got banned because he totally lost it once he got this off his chest. 

I am suspecting something similar going on here, but i am not going to be the one who holds up this anatomically correct doll to Bels face.

This kind of “unsuccessful” east-Germans usually become racist AFD supporters. Not Leftists. They tend to blame migrant workers as the cause of their unhappiness (a little bit like MAGA supporters in the US)

[Leonardo17]

Please leave  Putin alone so he can commit ethnic cleansing and destroy Ukraine and placate the fascists at home in Russia who keep him in power.

Putin has a long history of threatening with nuclear war. In the lead-up o the  2016  election when he did not want Hillary  Clinton to win according to common sense and according to US intelligence reports,  what was happening?

Putin was doing all sorts of nuclear drills inside Russia on the eve of the American election in 2016. And you had the Russian friendly candidates—Donald Trump and Jill Stein—essentially pointing that out and saying, “Don't vote for Hillary Clinton. She's a war monger. She's gonna drag us into war with Russia.” They were amplifying that hysteria. And so Putin does the nuclear saber rattling and his useful idiots amplify that messaging to get inside people's heads.

So again, you have all these idiots saying, “If you support Ukraine, you're dragging us into World War 3. Stop support for Ukraine.” So what they're saying is they're trying to equate any support for Ukrainians to defend themselves, to protect themselves against actual ethnic cleansing, they're equating that with nuclear war that's gonna destroy the world.

This reminds me of the comments of Silvio Berlusconi at the end of last month:
“Former Italian PM Silvio Berlusconi has defended Vladimir Putin's invasion of Ukraine, saying Russia's leader was "pushed" into the conflict.
The 85-year-old said Russian troops were meant to replace the government with "decent people" then leave.” (Quote from BBC news)
 
So what he is saying is:
 
“Why don’t you leave him alone. He was going to invade a foreign country. Install a type of government that he like. And then leave.”
 
Like me saying:
“I was just going to break in Mr. Bernuscoli’s house. F. his… one or two times. And leave. What’s wrong with it dmned!”
 
/ No I mean: with the spread of the social media and all these misleading types of information that the uneducated parts of our societies tend to believe. Some people in power (like Donald Trump for instance) really seem to have lost their connection with reality and seem to be seriously thinking that all of us are complete idiots. That’s the way I understand it.
 
(Sorry for the remark on the former Italian President but that’s more or less what he is saying)

[Leonardo17]

Haiti is in imminent danger of being invaded by foreign troops intent on shoring up an unpopular puppet government.

Which country should supply the arms to help Haitians overcome years of oppression?

That’s a completely different subject. But foreign intervention (like the interventions of the Wagner group in many parts of Africa) is the last thing that these countries need. These are countries with weak institutions. What they need is some sort of support for the establishment of a kind of state of law. The country is ruled by gangsters and all that the international community is providing is food aid.

[Belacqua]

 
Ukraine wasn’t corrupt at all. 

This goes against pretty much everything I've heard. Though I admit that in the propaganda storm we're currently experiencing, lots of untrue things get said. 

Do you have a link or reference to support this?

Russia tried to subvert it internally with Viktor Yanukovych who was the Pro-Russian President of Ukraine before Petro Poroshenko (The predecessor of Vlodimyr Zelensky). They wanted to turn it into a Belarussian-like puppet-state. When it failed they declared war.

Poroshenko is on record as saying some very dangerous things about the Russian-speaking population of Ukraine. Like, they must be "re-educated or leave the country." He incited violence, and violence against the Russian-speaking population was increasing. 

Whatever other excuses they have, this gave the Russians the justification that they are a large country going in to protect an oppressed population. Poroshenko made it look as though a peaceful settlement between the Ukrainian-speakers and the Russian-speakers would be impossible. 

Again, if you have trustworthy sources saying the opposite I'd be interested to see.

[Leonardo17]

We'd want to be sure that we don't have a double standard involved, where it's OK for our team but not for theirs.

If you are talking about colonialism with the famous “mission of civilizing the uncivilized world” you should open a high-school history book and read the section on “Decolonization in the post-WWII Period” (This was the title of the that section in our history books).

[Belacqua]

Haiti is in imminent danger of being invaded by foreign troops intent on shoring up an unpopular puppet government.

Which country should supply the arms to help Haitians overcome years of oppression?

That’s a completely different subject. But foreign intervention (like the interventions of the Wagner group in many parts of Africa) is the last thing that these countries need. These are countries with weak institutions. What they need is some sort of support for the establishment of a kind of state of law. The country is ruled by gangsters and all that the international community is providing is food aid.

I certainly agree that foreign intervention very often does more harm than good.

Remember the propaganda lexicon, though: "gangsters" means groups opposed to US hegemony, "freedom fighter" means groups supporting US hegemony. 

Paying close attention to how the different foreign interventions are described tells us a lot about the bias of the source.

[Belacqua]

We'd want to be sure that we don't have a double standard involved, where it's OK for our team but not for theirs.

If you are talking about colonialism with the famous “mission of civilizing the uncivilized world” you should open a high-school history book and read the section on “Decolonization in the post-WWII Period” (This was the title of the that section in our history books).

I don't have that book handy. I'd be interested in your take on the issue, though.

[Leonardo17]

Okay... that clears up a few things for me.

I'm of the opinion it's wrong for ANY country to invade ANY WHERE.

So Haiti's troubles has nothing to do with the troubles in Europe, got ya.  

Not at work.

Again: it’s a different subject. But invade Haiti today and 20 years later all you will get will be an Afghanistan 2.0.
 
There are some elements that are simply lacking in today’s international policies. We don’t seem to have accurate methods for supporting countries (like Haiti for instance) who are truly in big trouble. By this I mean supporting them without giving them money, loans or food. There are countries in Central America who are ruled by local cartels and the local population has no option but to flee toward north-America or Mexico.
 
   Today we have no mean of supporting such countries. It isn’t there. Bu the U.N. could support the rule of a fairly elected government. That help this government to assert its power over the marauding gangs by helping their army, their justice system, their police force with inspectors, people who are closely monitoring these efforts, training programs for such police forces etc. (like what the U.S. seemingly tried to do in Afghanistan but seems to have failed entirely).

[The Architect Of Fate]

About an earlier war-based-on-lies, Julian Assange said:

"The goal is to use Afghanistan to wash money out of the tax bases of the US and Europe through Afghanistan and back into the hands of a transnational security elite. The goal is an endless war, not a successful war."

He would probably be saying the same about our current war if he weren't a political prisoner.

Yeah, Julian Assange's opinions have about as much credibilty and weight as  Homer Simpson's. And he's a political prisoner he's just a prisoner.