Russia and Ukraine

[arewethereyet]

Awww.....the superiority complex plays out once again.

If your Haitian general had a cool action figure, he'd be more widely known.

Tell us how this guy plays into your US is evil mantra.

[The Grand Nudger]

I just think it's sad that everybody knows who Luke Skywalker is but almost nobody knows Toussaint Louverture. 

How do you know that nobody on this board knew Toussaint Louverture?

Maybe he figured there weren't many gulf-staters? Or maybe -he- isn't, and so it seems like a faraway niche piece of history, as it might to some schmuck from idaho.

[Belacqua]

About an earlier war-based-on-lies, Julian Assange said:

"The goal is to use Afghanistan to wash money out of the tax bases of the US and Europe through Afghanistan and back into the hands of a transnational security elite. The goal is an endless war, not a successful war."

He would probably be saying the same about our current war if he weren't a political prisoner.

[Leonardo17]

[...]

But as a deeper way of analyzing things: I think huge errors were made in the post-soviet era (by both sides). I think the west was too opportunistic in that era. I would have made agreements to 1) support the transition of the Russian legal system to a westernized legal system 2) support and monitor all the privatization efforts of the Russian state and try to supervise the way these privatizations are being made. So that no one robs the Russian people and that these people are not pushed into alcoholism and prostitution. In exchange, I would ask for the dismantlement of more nuclear weapons. [...]

Yes, I think it's good to step back and see that the history goes further back than last week, and what's happening now has direct causes.

When the US and the IMF imposed shock therapy on the collapsing Soviet Union, millions of people suffered financially, and life expectancy shortened significantly. The oligarchs took everything.

Putin is very popular in Russia now for restoring stability and exercising power over the oligarchs. No one is saying that he's a pure democratic leader and the ideal we would want -- but there's a reason he's so popular at home. 

There's also a reason why the Russian people have no trust for promises from the US. 

That’s what he did in Syria as well. Millions of refugees fled the country. Cities, historical places were razed to the ground. But the Assad regime (friendly toward Russia), has no collapsed, Russian interest has been maintained.

And remember that Russia got al Qaeda out of Syria, even as the US was supporting them. Now the US is occupying large parts of Syria and is stealing their oil and wheat with impunity. 

So again, no offence to anyone. But I don’t really like Russia’s foreign policy and in fact I didn’t like it in the Soviet Era either. I think that if the Soviets had not invaded Afghanistan, today we would have a Pakistan-like country in the region who isn’t posing any major threat to its own population or to any of the surrounding countries. 

I agree that the invasion of Afghanistan made the world worse. It would also have been better if Jimmy Carter had not begun funding the extremist Muslims in order to counter the Soviets. It was this US-backed group that caused a little bit of trouble later on.

These issues go back a long way. Both sides are guilty. Pretending that it's all one side prevents us from accurate evaluations of history and realistic plans for going forward.

Sorry for being late.
 
1) I don’t believe That Putin has any power over the oligarchs. I think that he is a part of that system (however that system is working)
2) This is not something I will debate on. Putin approved the spread of political Islam in Chechenia in return for the support of Chechen leaders in Ukraine. If I was a nationalist Russian, well, I would probably still hate Putin.
3) Again, No. There were still nationalist Afghan Elements in Afghanistan like Ahmad Shah Massoud who was murdered 1 week before 9/11 by the Saudi-backed Taliban’s. If the Taliban weren’t backed by so many other foreign powers (like Pakistan and Saudi Arabia) Afghanistan would still have a chance. The US was backing all elements during the war. But it’s not entirely their fault that the Taliban came to power. Still, If that war had not happened at all, no one would probably be even talking about Afghanistan today.  

[Leonardo17]

2) When you call an invasion a "response", and claim that its has been "limited". Then i cant take you serious at all. All i want is your motivations for being to dishonest.

3) I know you wont answer me, because you have me on ignore, but like Thump, i like the idea that my takedown of your silly claims will stand without having to endure more of your verbal garbage.

1) Here (in Turkey), I see both Russians who come to my country for tourism and are brainwashed by propaganda to the point of making obscene gestures at Ukrainian demonstrators who are demonstrating against Moscow. And I also see (both Russians and Ukranians) who come as tourist but end up being refugees of war or political refugees.
- The man is simply insane, and his supporters, well, they should be put in the Evin Prison in Iran. That would be a good karma for them.
2) This isn’t dishonesty. Test them. Some of these people really believe in this S. This is the power of propaganda. They could pick a fight with you because of your arguments on these subjects. As I said: It’s an alternate reality. They truly believe in it.
Example: Think of the word “Nazi” for instance. In our reality, Putin is the new Hitler, or the new Napoleon if you like. In their world, Vlodymir Zelensky is the Nazi / Drug addict who want to destroy the Ukrainian People and Russians are their saviors.
This is insanity. We should refer to things as what they are.
3) I am always vigilant on the internet. As long as you don’t know them personally, you don’t know who they are.

[Leonardo17]

(...)

He can't handle real criticism or the fact the people he's citing are full of it.

- He may even be feeling sad for you because you poor westerners are being brainwashed by the Zionist (or whatever) media and are completely out of touch with reality. 
- No seriously: You don’t know how state controlled media works like. This means that every newspaper, every TV channel, most internet sites, even movies, soap operas (that are designed by the propaganda machine to distort reality and even distort history when this is deemed necessary) are state controlled and the population is constantly being fed with lies, lies and lies. In fact the ordinary man in Russia has three options: a) believing in the propaganda b) pretending he is not interested in politics c) going insane. There is no option d).
/Dissidents in Russia are mostly people of my generation or younger who are connected to the internet and are able to recognize all the lies of the regime. (And all of them are either in prison or they have also fled to neighboring countries)

[Leonardo17]

Congrats you found one post that showed a picture being faked. That totally debunks the fact Russians are fleeing to avoid the draft .....


Please prove this is fake as well 



Or This 




Go ahead and call the Mongolian government liars 

[url= https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-fleeing-d...51429.html[/url]


https://punchng.com/people-fleeing-russi...er-queues/


Call all the governments of Central Asia liars 

https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/10/04/rus...ipts-flee/


Explain why Russia is increasing penalties for Draft Dodgers 

[url= https://www.kyivpost.com/russias-war/put...dgers.html[/url]


You are determined to find one piece of evidence to sow doubt and push your narratives. But to do so you must ignore overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

The official Kremlin position is:
“Those numbers are exaggerated”
See: it was the Greek philosopher Aristo that had said that tyrannies are more unstable than democracies. So remember this and expect a similar scenario for China. (That’s my point of view)

[The Grand Nudger]

You know, let' jut go ahead and assume that all of the worlds various shadowy elites are serviced by the war in ukraine.

So what?

[Leonardo17]

Russia says it's open to negotiations, but the US prefers to continue the war.

https://news.antiwar.com/2022/10/11/lavr...-comments/

Listen my friend: On February 19th Putin was saying that the westerns were hysterical about the plans of Russia to annex Ukraine and on February 20th, he attacked.

He is incoherent. How do you make peace with an incoherent man?

[Leonardo17]

The fact that Russia wants more than Crimea and a few Ukrainian counties is exactly why posters in this thread have been saying recent Russian atrocities are about more than little bits of territory.

The problem that we have is this. Beyond this spiral of lies, misinformation, repression of dissidents, power struggle etc., no one really knows what Putin is up to. In fact many believe that he-himself is simply reacting to events, trying to fight for his own survival.

And I am saying this because in the week prior to the invasion of Ukraine, Americans were the only ones who believed he was really going to attack. All the other players, including the Germans, dismissed this possibility and focused on their own economic interest instead.