THE Gun Thread

[Orbit]

I'll just leave this here. A series of un-paywalled research on guns and society: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/toc/1475682x/2021/91/2

Edit: It looks like they've re-paywalled it. It must have been a limited time thing, but you can still read the abstracts DOH!

[Brian37]

 This is half assed olive branch dodging. We have the highest volume of firearm deaths among our wealthy nation ally peers. Why? Because a small minority of fucking assholes are holding our nation hostage. There is a "right" in this argument and fuck you for claiming it is point  view ..... PTSD is a very real thing and not simply an "idea". Turning our society into a shooting gallery has a very negative effect on health, and mental health especially. That isn't a "point of view". 

"I am not sure violence will be diminished as a whole." <----- Siri gibberish translator " Other bad things happen so lets not do anything at all."

I agree, violence in general will not go down with your bullshit attitude. With the money we spend cleaning up after every one of these events, could be spent on conflict resolution skills and critical thinking skills being taught in public schools, that could certainly help reduce violence of all kinds. Not making firearms like candy could help. Not handing firearms out like candy could help. Lots of things we could be doing but cant because a fucked up selfish few.

WOW!  I am being respectful, but you have you go all the way to "FUCK YOU".  And you want to reduce violence in society?

If someone has a gun to your head, and tells you not do move lest they shoot, you may have the right, and the ability, but no real choice was my point.  IE, the one with the gun has the power to allow you to have whatever rights you think you have.

Who do you think is to blame for 99% of the gun violence in this country?  People like me?  (USA)

I never said anything about PTSD not being a real thing, but true PTSD is not a common as most think, most use it as an excuse........are you one of those?

I've had it up to my gills with fake sincerity and fake concern. The sane have been compromising with the right wing nutjobs for the past 40 years on this issue, and all it does is create profits for the CEOs on the backs of innocent people being needlessly slaughtered. Nope, sorry, I will not respect selfishness and ignorance. If you insist on stupidly claiming in this context on this subject that there are two sides to every story, I could give a fuck less. Sure, you can claim that if you want, but only one side is actually right, and the other side is bat shit nuts.

The GOP pulls the same variety of dodges out every single time. And whenever we do manage to get some reasonable safety laws passed, the GOP once they regain power they undo those laws. The Brady Bill was the last time they actually gave a fuck, and only because their party's President was shot, but years later, they gutted the very law they helped pass. They do the same shit over and over, decade after decade. And your condescending patronizing me isn't going to wash. 

There is no compromise now. There is the right pulling it's head out of their asses, and working with us, or getting the fuck out of the way. But they are not going to control the narrative anymore. We've done "arm more, sell more" and it isn't fucking working. If you think they can be reasoned with, you are fooling yourself. If my words offend you more than say two schoolchildren being decapitated by a spray weapon, then you are the one with the problem. The fucks I have to give are less than zero at this point.

[weaponoffreedom]

WOW!  I am being respectful, but you have you go all the way to "FUCK YOU".  And you want to reduce violence in society?

If someone has a gun to your head, and tells you not do move lest they shoot, you may have the right, and the ability, but no real choice was my point.  IE, the one with the gun has the power to allow you to have whatever rights you think you have.

Who do you think is to blame for 99% of the gun violence in this country?  People like me?  (USA)

I never said anything about PTSD not being a real thing, but true PTSD is not a common as most think, most use it as an excuse........are you one of those?

I've had it up to my gills with fake sincerity and fake concern. The sane have been compromising with the right wing nutjobs for the past 40 years on this issue, and all it does is create profits for the CEOs on the backs of innocent people being needlessly slaughtered. Nope, sorry, I will not respect selfishness and ignorance. If you insist on stupidly claiming in this context on this subject that there are two sides to every story, I could give a fuck less. Sure, you can claim that if you want, but only one side is actually right, and the other side is bat shit nuts.

The GOP pulls the same variety of dodges out every single time. And whenever we do manage to get some reasonable safety laws passed, the GOP once they regain power they undo those laws. The Brady Bill was the last time they actually gave a fuck, and only because their party's President was shot, but years later, they gutted the very law they helped pass. They do the same shit over and over, decade after decade. And your condescending patronizing me isn't going to wash. 

There is no compromise now. There is the right pulling it's head out of their asses, and working with us, or getting the fuck out of the way. But they are not going to control the narrative anymore. We've done "arm more, sell more" and it isn't fucking working. If you think they can be reasoned with, you are fooling yourself. If my words offend you more than say two schoolchildren being decapitated by a spray weapon, then you are the one with the problem. The fucks I have to give are less than zero at this point.

No they dont offend me, please continue.  I enjoy learning about other points of view.  I am interested to know your answers to the questions I asked, in addition to one more........

who do you think should have guns?

[The Grand Nudger]

Just as you may own a home even if and when a person is invading it, you still possess rights even if and when a person is violating them.

Most people who get shot, shoot themselves - either intentionally or accidentally, with the former accounting for half of gun deaths (or slightly better) year over year. In fact, somewhere around 90% of people who get shot for any reason get shot by someone they know - with SO's topping that list if you happen to be female. Red flag laws have been conclusively shown to prevent some portion of these shootings, particularly in cases of domestic violence (it's rare that a person goes straight to the guns, skipping your everyday beatings). Suicides are trickier. Alot of the time a person has never reached out for help - and guns tend to do the trick far better than any other means of offing yourself.

You're more likely to get shot in a densely populated area compared to outlying suburbs and rural communities - but that relationship doesn't hold state to state - as louisiana, mississippi, missourri, wyoming, and alabama top the list of rates of gun death.....while new york, rhode island, new jersey, massachusetts, and hawaii have the lowest rates. Additionally, state by state, you're more likely to get shot when gun ownership is high and gun regulations are low. Simply put, both of these numbers correlate to red states, so let's just call it what it is.

In each case above, the type of firearm you're likely to be shot by is a handgun - and not by a little, by alot. The types of weapons creatively referred to as assault-style are used in about 10% of all shootings. Rates of shootings go up when numbers of firearms go up, down when they go down. In sum, there simply is no group responsible for 99% of shootings, but the single largest cohort is yourself or your SO in a red state with a handgun. So, yes, people like you, as hard as it may be to believe - but that just goes to show the disparity between reality and perception when it comes to shootings.

[weaponoffreedom]

Just as you may own a home even if and when a person is invading it, you still possess rights even if and when a person is violating them.

Most people who get shot, shoot themselves - either intentionally or accidentally, with the former accounting for half of gun deaths (or slightly better) year over year.  In fact, somewhere around 90% of people who get shot for any reason get shot by someone they know - with SO's topping that list if you happen to be female.  Red flag laws have been conclusively shown to prevent some portion of these shootings, particularly in cases of domestic violence (it's rare that a person goes straight to the guns, skipping your everyday beatings).  Suicides are trickier.  Alot of the time a person has never reached out for help - and guns tend to do the trick far better than any other means of offing yourself.  

You're more likely to get shot in a densely populated area compared to outlying suburbs and rural communities - but that relationship doesn't hold state to state - as louisiana, mississippi, missourri, wyoming, and alabama top the list of rates of gun death.....while new york, rhode island, new jersey, massachusetts, and hawaii have the lowest rates.   Additionally, state by state, you're more likely to get shot when gun ownership is high and gun regulations are low.  Simply put, both of these numbers correlate to red states, so let's just call it what it is.  

In each case above, the type of firearm you're likely to be shot by is a handgun - and not by a little, by alot.  The types of weapons creatively referred to as assault-style are used in about 10% of all shootings.  Rates of shootings go up when numbers of firearms go up, down when they go down.  In sum, there simply is no group responsible for 99% of shootings, but the single largest cohort is yourself or your SO in a red state with a handgun.  So, yes, people like you, as hard as it may be to believe - but that just goes to show the disparity between reality and perception when it comes to shootings.

Not sure where you are getting your facts from, but I now understand why you feel as you do.  I would quote some sources via a link, but I think that is a gainst the rules., thanks

[The Grand Nudger]

-and with the above in mind, it seems to me that a four front approach would work to eliminate all shootings that might be eliminated.

The first is to shore up the administrative state. We've intentionally defunded and defanged gun laws and agencies. This goes to sale, trafficking, storage, and use.
The second is to fund public mental health care - by far the greatest factor in gun death.
The third is to fund anti-poverty initiatives which address the root causes of crime. (and in concert with the above, domestic violence)
The fourth is to fund a nationwide buyback program targeting whatever class of weapon is most prevalent in trace data. It would be older handguns to start..and for a long while.

I think that these steps should be performed before we discuss the merits of curtailing our rights.

(you can go find any of those numbers yourself - you have the internet - try federal trace data and the doj)

[Brian37]

I've had it up to my gills with fake sincerity and fake concern. The sane have been compromising with the right wing nutjobs for the past 40 years on this issue, and all it does is create profits for the CEOs on the backs of innocent people being needlessly slaughtered. Nope, sorry, I will not respect selfishness and ignorance. If you insist on stupidly claiming in this context on this subject that there are two sides to every story, I could give a fuck less. Sure, you can claim that if you want, but only one side is actually right, and the other side is bat shit nuts.

The GOP pulls the same variety of dodges out every single time. And whenever we do manage to get some reasonable safety laws passed, the GOP once they regain power they undo those laws. The Brady Bill was the last time they actually gave a fuck, and only because their party's President was shot, but years later, they gutted the very law they helped pass. They do the same shit over and over, decade after decade. And your condescending patronizing me isn't going to wash. 

There is no compromise now. There is the right pulling it's head out of their asses, and working with us, or getting the fuck out of the way. But they are not going to control the narrative anymore. We've done "arm more, sell more" and it isn't fucking working. If you think they can be reasoned with, you are fooling yourself. If my words offend you more than say two schoolchildren being decapitated by a spray weapon, then you are the one with the problem. The fucks I have to give are less than zero at this point.

No they dont offend me, please continue.  I enjoy learning about other points of view.  I am interested to know your answers to the questions I asked, in addition to one more........

who do you think should have guns?

Wrong question.

"Why are we handing them out like candy based on "just because"?"<----- That is the most important question.. 

We don't treat a pilot's license for a passenger jet like "Oh you want one, sure you have no record, you can walk right over to that Jet in 10 minutes after we issue the license and fly it."

Firearms are not fucking toys, and they should not be easy to get like candy. PEROID.

[Thumpalumpacus]

In contrast, I have a very good knowledge of these things, likely more than anyone you know...... I just want to hear you out with respect so I can understand you point of view.

Well, if we're going with self-proclaimed authority, I did shoot expert marksman in the Air Force as a firefighter member of a Prime BEEF team. You may or may not know more than I, but you clearly had no idea what smart guns are, so if I were in your shoes I'd probably be a little more circumspect in my opinionatin'.

Your expertise, in short, will be judged by your audience. Right now I'm unimpressed.

[The Grand Nudger]

When we can and can't do x is all over the place. We can drive at 16 vote at 18 and drink at 21. If we believe that a person is not capable of drinking responsibly until the age of 21, then they probably can't own or operate a handgun responsibly before that time either (and federal law agrees). In fact, if you bump that up to 24 - you've just aged out the majority of criminals most likely to possess or use a handgun.

[weaponoffreedom]

In contrast, I have a very good knowledge of these things, likely more than anyone you know...... I just want to hear you out with respect so I can understand you point of view.

Well, if we're going with self-proclaimed authority, I did shoot expert marksman in the Air Force as a firefighter member of a Prime BEEF team. You may or may not know more than I, but you clearly had no idea what smart guns are, so if I were in your shoes I'd probably be a little more circumspect in my opinionatin'.

Your expertise, in short, will be judged by your audience. Right now I'm unimpressed.

It was a poor attempt at humor, but I am well aware of what a smart gun is "supposed" to be, when they prototyped nearly 30 years ago..........point of my improperly placed "smart gun, whats that" comment, was I challenge you to find one today, I think you will find the pickens to be quite slim, in that in the 3rd quarter of 2022, which is not even here yet.  I find it hard to believe that the companies will last, being as the only ones who would buy them, are those who dont really want people to have guns.

You know, I just entered this forum, and there seems to be a lot of aggression here.  I am just trying to get other perspectives, and not fight with others with pointed comments........ But as to my credentials.....not that it matters, being on an online forum, but:

Airborne Infantryman, 505th PIR, 82nd ABN Division
LSRD Team Leader, 313th MI Battalion, 82nd ABN Division
Airborne school
Air Assault school
Pathfinder School
Halo School
Expert infantry badge
Combat Infantry badge
*various medals and awards

NRA Certified Instructor for (for both students and instructors):

pistol
rifle
shotgun
personal protection in the home
personal protection outside the home
Range Safety Officer
certified instructor for CHP in my state (concealed handgun permitting class) (no longer certified)

former competitive shooter
Soviet weapons, especially the Kalashnikov enthusiast