Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
Current time: March 29, 2024, 8:55 am

Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Even if theism is a failure, it's still superior to atheism
RE: Even if theism is a failure, it's still superior to atheism
You should never bet body parts  Cool
"Change was inevitable"


Nemo sicut deus debet esse!

[Image: Canada_Flag.jpg?v=1646203843]



 “No matter what men think, abortion is a fact of life. Women have always had them; they always have and they always will. Are they going to have good ones or bad ones? Will the good ones be reserved for the rich, while the poor women go to quacks?”
–SHIRLEY CHISHOLM


      
Reply
RE: Even if theism is a failure, it's still superior to atheism
(September 20, 2022 at 5:01 pm)polymath257 Wrote: The reason religious debates are pointless is because there is no way to prove either side right OR wrong. They are *pure* speculation over nonsense claims. 
Untrue.  Insomuch as  nuts are unwilling to engage in any reasonable or good faith assessment of religious claims, it's pointless to debate with those nuts.

It's completely voluntary.  You don't have to be a nut to be religious - and that's why nutter religions are horseshit. Not because religions have to be pure speculation over nonsense. That's a choice the religious make for themselves in any given faith.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
RE: Even if theism is a failure, it's still superior to atheism
(September 20, 2022 at 5:09 pm)R00tKiT Wrote: There actually are some topics/issues in Islamic faith or jurisprudence that only admit one true answer. You either accept the answer or you can no longer consider yourself a Muslim. 
Being able to consider yourself a muslim, and some proposition being true or false, are not interchangeable. It's certainly the case that islamists like yourself insist that there is only one asnwer you can give and be a true muslim..but it's not clear that this set of answers maps to the set of correct or factual answers, in mere reality.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
RE: Even if theism is a failure, it's still superior to atheism
(September 20, 2022 at 4:44 pm)R00tKiT Wrote:
(September 20, 2022 at 4:34 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: You say alot of stupid shit, the above is just another example of the same.  I think it's a shame if you've got some work on your bookshelf and have read it, and enjoyed it, and still managed to miss it..all the same.

Is that what's happened to you?

Al-Ghazali's book The incoherence is really not a cakewalk, so don't blame me if I didn't understand all the material there. I know enough though to tell there is nothing in this particular book speaking against arguing for qur'anic miracles.

Ironically, Al-Ghazali is one of the first leading thinkers that pointed out to scientific facts in the Qur'an. He has a very lengthy and famous paragraph in Jawahir al Qur'an quoting verses about planet motion, embryology, etc, and insisting that this is further indication of the divine source of the book.

Yes, like all apologists, he twists the verses until they agree with what he already knows.
Reply
RE: Even if theism is a failure, it's still superior to atheism
(September 20, 2022 at 4:51 pm)R00tKiT Wrote:
(September 20, 2022 at 4:46 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Still harping on that discredited rubbish, I see. 

Boru

He's one of the best minds in the history of Islamic thought. Show some minimal respect for these scholars, you don't have to agree with them for that.

And, my right hand to God you never opened a single book he wrote.

Sorry, but I don't have much respect for Al Ghazali. There are other scholars who were Muslim that I do have respect for, but I tend not to have much respect for theologians.
Reply
RE: Even if theism is a failure, it's still superior to atheism
(September 20, 2022 at 5:09 pm)R00tKiT Wrote:
(September 20, 2022 at 5:01 pm)polymath257 Wrote: Exactly the characteristics of a fundamentalist: they think they have the one, true answer and nobody should debate it.

There actually are some topics/issues in Islamic faith or jurisprudence that only admit one true answer. You either accept the answer or you can no longer consider yourself a Muslim. Muslims take their religion seriously, call them "fundamentalists" or whatever you want. 

It's a bit like someone clearly showingyou  some math proof and that the result/theorem is necessarily true (given some assumptions), and then you get angry and say : what a fundamentalist way to see things ? can't this theorem be interpreted any other way ..? there must be some way to avoid the correctness of this proof

It's exactly the same thing in religion. Once you accept metaphysical assumptions about God's existence and the divine source of the Qur'an, you have to accept the logical consequences, you can't play fast and loose with the faith after that.

(September 20, 2022 at 5:01 pm)polymath257 Wrote: There is no 'correct' interpretation of the Quran 

There is, but I assume at this point that you don't really care to know more about the topic.

Again, the Quran is wrong because it makes truth claims about a deity. Saying that there is only one interpretation doesn't mean that interpretation is the truth.

Being Muslim is NOT the same as 'believing the truth'. Those metaphysical assumptions and adherence to the Quran are precisely where things go wrong. The correctness of the proof is useless if the assumptions are invalid.

In contrast, the basic axioms of mathematics are not in doubt (outside of a few specialists). The correctness of the proof *does* say something about the truth of the conclusion.
Reply
RE: Even if theism is a failure, it's still superior to atheism
(September 20, 2022 at 6:29 pm)polymath257 Wrote: In contrast, the basic axioms of mathematics are not in doubt (outside of a few specialists). The correctness of the proof *does* say something about the truth of the conclusion.

As in finitists? (Not to derail this thread, but, it appears to be in the doghouse anyways.) Some time ago I made an edit to a Wikipedia article on finitism to point out the fact that a mathematician, a finitist, who was being cited in the present tense had, in fact, died in 1985.
Reply
RE: Even if theism is a failure, it's still superior to atheism
I have often found people tend to confuse maths proofs for empirical evidence.
"Never trust a fox. Looks like a dog, behaves like a cat."
~ Erin Hunter
Reply
RE: Even if theism is a failure, it's still superior to atheism
(September 20, 2022 at 8:31 pm)Tomato Wrote: I have often found people tend to confuse maths proofs for empirical evidence.

It's a mixed bag. On the one hand, you have theorists, such as Paul Dirac, who predicted the existence of the positron and is precise properties; after that, the experimentalists simply had to go look to find it. On the other hand, there was the ultraviolet catastrophe, where an established theory which described phenomenon at low energies broke down completely at higher energies. It got replaced.

In the absence of experimental evidence and/or observation, it's extremely difficult to tell which end of the spectrum one is dealing with. Beats guessing, in my opinion.
Reply
RE: Even if theism is a failure, it's still superior to atheism
(September 20, 2022 at 8:29 pm)Jehanne Wrote:
(September 20, 2022 at 6:29 pm)polymath257 Wrote: In contrast, the basic axioms of mathematics are not in doubt (outside of a few specialists). The correctness of the proof *does* say something about the truth of the conclusion.

As in finitists?  (Not to derail this thread, but, it appears to be in the doghouse anyways.)  Some time ago I made an edit to a Wikipedia article on finitism to point out the fact that a mathematician, a finitist, who was being cited in the present tense had, in fact, died in 1985.

Very few working mathematicians today are strict finitists, There may be a few intuitionists left, but if so they don't publish much. Debates about the Axiom of Choice are all in the past: it is accepted by the vast majority of mathematicians without comment.

In any case, all atual proofs are finite, so even a finitist would agree that a conclusion follows from some axioms, even if the axioms are not accepted.

Perhaps the biggest issue right now is in the realm of large cardinal axioms. Most set theorists accept them and most working mathematicians either don't care or are unhappy with such axioms.
Reply



Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  Did Jesus want to create a poli-theism religion? Eclectic 83 5918 December 18, 2022 at 7:54 am
Last Post: LinuxGal
  Ignosticism, Theism, or Gnostic Atheism vulcanlogician 55 3948 February 1, 2022 at 9:23 pm
Last Post: emjay
  You can be an immorale person and still promote christianity Kimba 12 1762 June 30, 2018 at 8:42 am
Last Post: The Industrial Atheist
  Rational Theism Foxaèr 17 5229 May 2, 2018 at 9:34 pm
Last Post: The Grand Nudger
  Why are believers still afraid of death? Der/die AtheistIn 49 4456 March 8, 2018 at 4:57 pm
Last Post: WinterHold
  Poverty and Theism Flavius 57 15368 April 25, 2017 at 9:56 am
Last Post: Shell B
Question Is theism more rational in a pre-scientific context? Tea Earl Grey Hot 6 1539 March 7, 2017 at 3:54 pm
Last Post: ignoramus
  What is your specific level of Theism? ignoramus 26 3361 January 11, 2017 at 6:49 pm
Last Post: Catholic_Lady
  Atheism and Theism Comparison The Joker 86 11927 November 21, 2016 at 10:52 pm
Last Post: Astreja
Question Even an atheist can say "the laws came from above", isn't it? theBorg 52 8797 October 3, 2016 at 9:02 am
Last Post: I_am_not_mafia



Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)