The Issue of Idolatry in Abrahamic Religions

[Leonardo17]

Here is the stance of the Quran as it is mentioned in the Chapter called AL-Anbyah in the Quran. The same story is also mentioned in the Bible.
 
Abraham questioned his father and his people, “What are these statues to which you are so devoted?”. They replied, “We found our forefathers worshipping them.” He responded, “Indeed, you and your forefathers have been clearly wrong.” They asked, “Have you come to us with the truth, or is this a joke?” He replied, “In fact, your Lord is the Lord of the heavens and the earth, Who created them ˹both˺. And to that I bear witness.” ˹Then he said to himself,˺ “By Allah! I will surely plot against your idols after you have turned your backs and gone away.” So he smashed them into pieces, except the biggest of them, so they might turn to it ˹for answers˺. They protested, “Who dared do this to our gods? It must be an evildoer!” Some said, “We heard a young man, called Abraham, speaking ˹ill˺ of them.” They demanded, “Bring him before the eyes of the people, so that they may witness ˹his trial˺.” They asked, “Was it you who did this to our gods, O  Abraham?” He replied ˹sarcastically˺, “No, this one—the biggest of them—did it! So ask them, if they can talk!”
 
https://quran.com/al-anbya
 
https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Parallelism:_..._the_Idols
 
I mentioned an extract of this Chapter directly in order to discuss its relationship with the anti-blasphemy actions that have started to spread in many places especially in the UK. Here is a good article on that:
 
https://www.yahoo.com/news/protests-outs...00074.html
 
So my argument is that if you are a theist, you must know that God does not like idols. This is something that is mentioned in many places in all Abrahamic books.
 
So the second question is “What is an idol?”. In İslam we have about 99 names that are mentioned in the Holy Book to designate God or Allah. So anything that is not these 99 things all at once (at the same time) does not fall into the definition of God or Allah. So everyone knows that a statue that you may have bought as a souvenir in Nepal (for instance) is not God or Allah. So if you are a theist you do not worship that.
   Now in my definition, any extreme attachment to anything that is not “The power that arranges the movement of galaxies and stars” is a type of idolatry. That could be money, that could be anything in my life my house, my car, by body even my country, even my planet, all of the mosques of the world put together, a copy of a religious scripture, all the libraries of the world, basically everything.
 
    Real spirituality (as defined by one of my favorite Muslim Scholars) is a Matrix (Movie, 1999) philosophy. The main subject here is that “none of these is real / Only spirit / God is real).
 
So in my understanding (and I am not saying that people should not be protesting or reacting in any peaceful means when they feel attacked or insulted in some way) extreme attachment to any type of religious object is also a form of idolatry.
 
I believe that it’s not ok to make fun of religious figures and I have the right to express that thought wherever I like.  But the murder of the Teacher Samuel Paty in France in October 2002 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Samuel_Paty) for me is an act of idolatry. And so are all those protests mentioned in the article above.
 
Spiritual people are people who are focused on inner realities. People who are focused on external objects (as defined by the Quran itself) are just people “Who do thing because their ancestors were doing exactly the same thing”.
 
And this is the very reason while people hate dogmas and all sorts of dogmatic / Zealous belief systems. And I think this is going to be the main challenge of all theists during this century. I think we are being challenged to rectify – basically everything – about our belief systems.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

^I’m confused. By your definition, how can the murder of Paty be an act of idolatry? In his murder of Paty, Anzotov was displaying an extreme attachment to what he believed was ‘the power that arranges the movement of galaxies and stars’.

Unless, of course, you mean that we should only have extreme attachment to things like gravity and angular momentum. Which seems kinda weird.

Boru

[The Grand Nudger]

You know one of my pet peeves? When some dipshit theist says things like "if you're a theist" as though their ridiculous beliefs are representative of the entire set, which they never are. Another one, when some fucking magic book worshipper wants to lecture people about idols.

[Leonardo17]

^I’m confused. By your definition, how can the murder of Paty be an act of idolatry? In his murder of Paty, Anzotov was displaying an extreme attachment to what he believed was ‘the power that arranges the movement of galaxies and stars’.

Unless, of course, you mean that we should only have extreme attachment to things like gravity and angular momentum. Which seems kinda weird.

Boru

I’m going to share the Wikipedia link on that:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Samuel_Paty
 
The murderer (whatever his name is) killed him because this teacher organized a debate in his class while showing one of the nude comics of the Prophet that were published in the French Satirical magazine called Charlie Hebdo.
 
Now we all respect our prophets and we teach little children they should be respectful of such important religious figures no matter what (or that’s how I was raised).
 
Still, I don’t have a personal connection with any of the prophets.
Ex: Trolls (political İslamist trolls) were talking about one of the young wives of the prophet a few years ago. And I didn’t even engage in that discussion. In a situation like this, I will see the rubbish and I will move away.
 
I am mostly about the spiritual teaching of these prophets and/or other visionary, saintly or spiritual people.
 
Other Example: Someone wrote a book here about the Sufi Mystic Rumi in which he was depicted as a homosexual etc. Again: I didn’t even know this guy, so even if that was true, that’s not what I am about in this context. I am after the spiritual messages that will be beneficial to me. It’s all about me basically. I really don’t have any worry about anyone else outside me (that’s how I understand the whole issue).
 
So, I am not even talking about murder here. I think that even being overly reactive to one of the examples given above is a sign of idolatry. I am about the teaching of prophets, Atheist comics that seemingly mock these persons are not even within my area of interest.
 
So yes, this Idiot has a huge Ego. He felt like people insulted his deity. So he committed a sacrifice of blood to make it right. So may Marduk bless him for that but (from my own personal experience) this is not / has never been our way of doing things (not really, no)

[The Grand Nudger]

It would be more accurate to say that you personally disagree with what has been a long and highly successful tradition. When you say that you wouldn't do it, I believe you. When you say that's not the way..you're lying - not primarily to me, but to yourself. I think it's regrettable that islam has been constructed this way for so long. It's hurt alot of people, mostly muslims.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

^I’m confused. By your definition, how can the murder of Paty be an act of idolatry? In his murder of Paty, Anzotov was displaying an extreme attachment to what he believed was ‘the power that arranges the movement of galaxies and stars’.

Unless, of course, you mean that we should only have extreme attachment to things like gravity and angular momentum. Which seems kinda weird.

Boru

I’m going to share the Wikipedia link on that:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Samuel_Paty
 
The murderer (whatever his name is) killed him because this teacher organized a debate in his class while showing one of the nude comics of the Prophet that were published in the French Satirical magazine called Charlie Hebdo.
 
Now we all respect our prophets and we teach little children they should be respectful of such important religious figures no matter what (or that’s how I was raised).
 
Still, I don’t have a personal connection with any of the prophets.
Ex: Trolls (political İslamist trolls) were talking about one of the young wives of the prophet a few years ago. And I didn’t even engage in that discussion. In a situation like this, I will see the rubbish and I will move away.
 
I am mostly about the spiritual teaching of these prophets and/or other visionary, saintly or spiritual people.
 
Other Example: Someone wrote a book here about the Sufi Mystic Rumi in which he was depicted as a homosexual etc. Again: I didn’t even know this guy, so even if that was true, that’s not what I am about in this context. I am after the spiritual messages that will be beneficial to me. It’s all about me basically. I really don’t have any worry about anyone else outside me (that’s how I understand the whole issue).
 
So, I am not even talking about murder here. I think that even being overly reactive to one of the examples given above is a sign of idolatry. I am about the teaching of prophets, Atheist comics that seemingly mock these persons are not even within my area of interest.
 
So yes, this Idiot has a huge Ego. He felt like people insulted his deity. So he committed a sacrifice of blood to make it right. So may Marduk bless him for that but (from my own personal experience) this is not / has never been our way of doing things (not really, no)

But, by your definition, the brutal murder of Paty still doesn’t qualify as idolatry.

Boru

[Leonardo17]

Thank you for your short and accurate answers and sorry for my long and complicated answers but I think this is important.
 
   After the atrocities of Charlie Hebdo in January 2015 that maniac (and no, I’m not going to mention his name) was yelling “We have avenged the Prophet Muhammad!”
 
Now most ordinary Muslims will disagree with this kind of barbaric acts but I know that there are a good percentage of them, among the supporters of the ruling political islamist party here who will silently agree with this act by saying things like “Yes but, why did this guy insult our Prophet?” or things like that.
 
So that’s when my approach and my interpretation of the issue comes in.
 
1) The prophet is dead. This means that he left his body some 1500 years ago. He is no longer in this world. There is like zero you can do to him. Therefore there is no way to avenge him either. If he has a legacy, I am part of those who mostly reject the value of the Hadith (the recorded sayings of the prophet), so if he has a legacy, that legacy is our Holy Book. So if you “love” the prophet, this can only mean that you need to try to understand his legacy, that is the original meaning of his teachings (like any other great spiritual leader).
 
2) I am a reader of an important scholar called Y.N. Öztürk (https://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ya%C5%9Far...zt%C3%BCrk). In some place around the world people keep relics like “the beard of the prophet” or “the footprint of the prophet” or “the pice of the clothes of the prophet” or even “the personal belongings / the sword of the prophet”. Now these last one (Sword / clothes etc) may have some historical value. But otherwise, the Islamic doctrine itself is saying that none of these objects have any religious value whatsoever. In fact the reason why the prophet has act for no picture to be made of him, was to try to avoid some of the perceived mistakes that was committed in Christianity. In this doctrine, the “ordinary man / messenger” status of the prophet is emphasized. So the reason why he wasn’t even represented in pictures is not that he taught people to murder anyone who chooses to do so, it’s because he said “See, I’m just a man, I’m like you, try to be like me, do not worship me”.
 
And again, my personal spiritual view: someone who does not understand this may be missing the whole point. And that’s bigger than some murderous B.d. Once someone asked a famous sage in India “Sir are you God?”, the sage said “Yes, and so are you”.
 
   Now this is a deeper subject. But that’s the whole point of the entire issue (the way I understand it). And I define something that is the exact opposite of what I am trying to explain here as idolatry. And I think I must be correct on this. There was another Muslim at some point in some other part of this this forum. I think he would agree with me as well. Right?  

[The Grand Nudger]

You probably don't want to associate yourself with any of our muslims.

[Leonardo17]

You probably don't want to associate yourself with any of our muslims.

I think you know the ones I am talking about . And the same works for all theists in general. In fact I was simply emboldened by the fact that, in a very decisive manner, bigots who are entirely focused on some dogmatic interpretation of religion have been losing ground during the past 500 years and will continue to do so in the future. So I have decided that maybe it’s more than time for “us” to be more vocal and start challenging these people.
 
I think I have a moral obligation to do that. See for instance. In the movement of mass protests that followed the terror attacks of Charlie Hebdo in January 2015, people were shouting “God is great and so is the Republic”.
 
Think of it for a minute. “The Republic / The Nation” is great. There is no doubt about this. You are talking about an idea / or an ideal in Plato’s terms (remember the allegory of the cave). So yes an idea is immortal (Remember the movie V for Vendetta – featuring Natalie Protman 2005). I totally agree with that. Bigots would like to have you think that this is idolatry. But no. For me the republic is an ideal. Just like “The Party” (if you happen to be a communist). So you are on a level that is higher than the material plane but still within the area of thought and the human intellect.
 
Now what about God? – In this example “God” seems to be a cosmic persona at best (like Zeus seated on mount Olympus). And yes, it’s exactly the same thing. You are in the realm of tought and intellect or the world of ideas / ideals as Plato would define it.    
 
For me, talking about God in that way, which is defined in the spiritual literature as “The Force that is the cause and origin of all creation (meaning the entire universe)” is idolatry pure and simple.
 
I don’t know if this is very complicated to the reader For me this is nonsense. I am not saying that people are wrong when they shout “God is great and so is the Republic”. I am saying that those “believers” or “your Muslims” if you like have got it all wrong. And that’s my humble opinion.
 
As I said before, if you are limited in your thinking, than you have to be humble. Meaning you don’t preach to other people, you don’t impose nothing on other people, you don’t try to force other people… More elderly people had that. Meaning they had their belief systems but they were not so vocal about people attacking their fate or anything like that. So someone or something has to draw the line with the newer generation of bigots.
 
And that’s also happening everywhere. Look at Israel for instance. It’s a totally different culture than mine but what is according to you the reason why orthodox Jews are trying to end democracy in that geography even although it’s a completely different culture and geography?
 
My explanation is this: The Ego of a spiritual seeker is as strong as the ego of any other mundane person. And bigotry is a sign of a deep ego consciousness. So people who are “spiritual” must work on themselves rather than others.
 
But that’s my own spiritual approach. And you may share your Materialistic / Newtonian approach if you like

[The Grand Nudger]

The republic does become an idol for some people, where nationalistic paraphernalia gains function beyond it's practical or aesthetic use and becomes a focus for worship and signaling. I wouldn't spend to much time flirting with the idea that god is just an idea in the company of islamists. Not because I think it has no merit - I think that's exactly what gods are and what gives theistic religions the ability to manifest consequences in reality. But for reasons of murder. Combine those two, national and religious idols - and you get mujahideen. Every nation and every religion has them. It's not a bug, it's a feature. It gives them a chip to bargain with both within their societies and outside of their societies. Whether that comes in the form of intersectional (para)military support, or in dissident action to establish a perpetual minority rule under threat of death or damage to infrastructure.

That leads me handily into how I would explain any orthodox attempt to end democracy. An abrahamic fundamentalist doesn't believe in democracy from the word go. That's not how they think the world works, or even should work. God isn't just an idea, he's The Man..and he makes The Rules...and this is the right and proper way to organize society. The developed world is leaning into nationalism and authoritarianism in general - even outside of the religiously concerned™. That zionists might be produced in these circumstances who are willing to both strangle democracy in their own society and utterly disenfranchise..say..palestinians....is like a clock ticking from one second to the next.

FWIW - you don't seem, to me, like you're in the same zipcode. Your own magic book idolatry is probably just a latent effect of an islamic upbringing. Background noise - not doing much of anything but making you seem confused and propagandized to an outsider.