Black Pill Dating Theory?

[FrustratedFool]

@Rev.Rye

I think what you say makes good sense of incel communities, at least from my limited experience. And I'm sure there's quite some overlap between BP and incels.

Really, the issue seems, from your post, to be the response to an issue rather than the identification of the issue itself.

What seems to me to be the core of BP, and what appears to me to be basic common sense, is that physical attractiveness (separate from, say, personality, employment, status, etc) is a (indeed, the) major contributor to dating. That is, as I say in the OP, if we lay aside the sexism and self-pity and anger etc (all of which are very much there, and maybe worth discussing separately).

Some go so far as to say that without a high level of attractiveness you will never have sex, but that often seems to be rhetorical hyperbole to me when I question them more since BPers will still agree that even a very unattractive person can pay for sex (indeed, this fact alone makes the term incel somewhat a misnomer), and that many average looking people can have at least limited dating success with unattractive people if they try hard enough and for long enough. And most also accept outliers, like Satre mentioned above. So even with hardline black-pillers the real idea is simply that looks are a massive factor not an absolute rule. At least, that's how it appears to me when you dissect the rhetoric.

So, as far as that goes I agree with them. The responses to that fact, though, are very varied in my experience: geomaxxin, looksmaxxing, PUA, whoremaxxing, gaymaxxing, and a bunch of other stuff often ending in 'maxxing'. It's also sometimes advocated to abandon human relationships entirely and fulfill the psychological needs of touch, companionship, sex, etc with psuedo-relationships (tulpas, dolls, bots, VR, pron etc), or pay for escorts, or turn to celibacy undergirded by religion and mysticism. I see little consistency there.

In trying to find an answer to 'what they want' then it is a little difficult. But in the same way I think I can pare their core problem down to 'looks really, really matter', I think I can pare down their desires to the following two options: 'I want to be attractive to, and develop a successful relationship with, people who I find attractive' and 'I want to have a life as easy as other people (usually young attractive women) have.'

The latter is, of course, envy (even if understandable) and unattainable, and is likely the core source of much of the more gross sentiment, sexism, and nasty rehtoric. Jealousy can often lead to hate.

The former, though, seems a totally normal and appreciable goal - doesn't every non-celibate allosexual/romantic person want to be found attractive by someone they in turn find attractive? I think this the real source of the mental and emotional pain of these people. It's also what I think incels really mean when they say they can't get laid. It's not they can't find someone somewhere to have sex with (perhaps for money), it's that they don't receive sexual validation from the people they find attractive.

It seems obvious when stated, but many seem to not realise, that ugly people don't find ugly people attractive. Ugly people still attractive people attractive same as everyone else. And in the same way that avergae and good looking people will rarely if ever choose to date someone they find physically and sexually repulsive, the same is true for people even if they're really physically unattractive. That's just human nature. Of course, many lonely people will 'settle' for what they can get (doesn't everyone?), but it won't stop them having that as an unfulfilled desire.

[Ahriman]

I'm not all that attractive and I still find ugly girls cute enough to desire them.

[FrustratedFool]

@Belacqua

I think we can agree: looks really matter. And a big part of looks is grooming. If you are at least average looking, then grooming can really elevate your attractiveness, and if you're good looking poor grooming can really cripple your attractiveness. Likewise with confidence - it can elevate or ruin.

Fair?

I guess where I might say most BP type folk fall, though, is into the category of: if you are genuinely physically ugly/short/fat/disfigured then not only are you unlikely to have the background necessary to have engendered confidence, but even with good grooming and confidence you are not going to meet most people's minimum looks threshold and/or you will be less appealing than other dating options they have available to them, and thus dating will be a serious struggle for you.

[FrustratedFool]

I'm not all that attractive and I still find ugly girls cute enough to desire them.

Cool. But the thing is you still do, in fact, desire them. At some point their physicality would be beyond that point, though - there are some women you don't desire physically. Most people have at least some threshold (otherwise we'd all be pansexual and attracted to elderly people). Maybe you have a much wider 'window' of attractiveness than many. But the key issue remains, most likely, that people only choose to date people they find non-repulsive and preferably attractive.

[Ahriman]

If I'm being honest, I kind of prefer ugly/homely girls.

[FrustratedFool]

Fair enough. Whatever works

[paulpablo]

I was obsessed with going down the incel rabbit hole and studying that culture.

From what I gather redpill is understanding that looks money and status are very important and if you try hard you can climb the ladder but it'll be tough.

Blackpill is just a more pessimistic version of that, puts looks over money and status, and puts more emphasis on you might aswell give up if you're not born with certain attributes.

Facial attractiveness is at the top of most important things and if you haven't got that you can try and "cope" by going to the gym and stuff like that but their argument is that it won't be enough to increase your sexual market value (smv).

There's other blackpill ideas that don't put facial attractiveness at the top and put other things as more important. Some will say if you're under a certain height "it's over"

They use phrases like "it's over" or "ldar" which is lay down and rot.

There's some statistical truth to what they say, on dating sites there are certain things that make people a whole lot more popular, but on the whole the philosophy is kind of comedically overdramatic. That's why so many funny memes have come from the incel community.

[FrustratedFool]

Yes, that matches what I found too. The truth, obvious though it is, is expressed and discussed with hyperbole and rhetoric often bordering on the comic or the crazy.

There's some good explanations for this, I think. Mostly these are new and online communities, and thus dominated by younger people. And in my experience younger people tend to be more dramatic and exaggerated and more emotional. Online communication also lends itself to hyperbole and dark humour and trolling, and so many truly outrageous things can be said.

Also, there's a lot of very genuine hurt, emotion, and mental illness tied up with being unattractive, being bullied, being rejected, lonely, touch starved, or sexually frustrated. Especially for young men who are in a society which portrays losing virginity and sexual validation as one of the most important things in life, and a key marker of masculinity and success. And there's also a fair few in such communities who are neurodiverse and whose communication skills and social assessments may be skewed.

[Belacqua]

@Belacqua

I think we can agree: looks really matter.  And a big part of looks is grooming.  If you are at least average looking, then grooming can really elevate your attractiveness, and if you're good looking poor grooming can really cripple your attractiveness.  Likewise with confidence - it can elevate or ruin.

Fair?

I guess where I might say most BP type folk fall, though, is into the category of: if you are genuinely physically ugly/short/fat/disfigured then not only are you unlikely to have the background necessary to have engendered confidence, but even with good grooming and confidence you are not going to meet most people's minimum looks threshold and/or you will be less appealing than other dating options they have available to them, and thus dating will be a serious struggle for you.

Yes, now that I think about it more, there are surely people who are unlucky enough to be unpleasant-looking to the degree that improved style is not going to make a big enough difference. 

I remember in my home town, long long ago, there was a young man who worked nights at the train station. He had some kind of terrible skin condition, to the point where it felt bad just to look at him. Very hard to imagine anyone wanting to kiss him. 

No doubt this is why he took the job he did -- not visible in the daytime, and the human contact he did have was mostly with transients. I made an effort to be friendly, but he was bitter about it and flipped me off when he thought I wasn't looking. 

This was decades before the terms "incel" or "black pill" were invented, but he would probably find common cause with such people today.

[zebo-the-fat]

Beauty is just skin deep.... but ugly goes right to the bone!