Dear Atheists: what would convince you God/Christ is Real?

[emjay]

Right, well it's in that overarching, comparative sense you've described that a 'thing' is meaningful to my own questions of why, and how, something not nothing. So I'm asking 'how can any 'thing', regardless of type or even kind, material, immaterial, knowable or unknowable etc, come into existence from nothing or exist eternally?'. Call this question 1.

Whereas the question from theology would seem to be different, more like 'how can one type/kind of thing - material things - come into existence from nothing or exist eternally?' and with the answer given 'by being created by another type/kind of thing - unknowable, spiritual, Platonic etc - that does come into existence from nothing or exist eternally'. Call this question 2.

From my perspective then, question 2, and its answer, is not satisfactory in the slightest because it does not address question 1 in the slightest. So I was basically asking if question 2, and its answer, is wholly satisfactory to you, and if so, why you and theology in general seem to have no interest whatsoever in question 1 (correct me if I'm wrong)? To me, question 2 is at best kicking the can on some questions, but not the key questions, and at worst, a red herring.

Well, gee -- you're only asking the biggest and most difficult metaphysical questions ever asked. There may be people who can give concise and persuasive answers to these, but I don't think I'm one of them.
[...] 

I'll mull over the rest of what you've said separately, but for now, just to address this point; I'm not expecting you or anyone to know the answer to this question... we can perhaps, or even probably, never know, but my point was not about what the answer is but what the question is, and whether you ask the same one I do... ie question 1, instead of or at least as well as question 2. Your response here suggests you do ask that question, which is good to know, because it means we at least have some potential common ground.

[neil]

How much does it cost, adjusting for inflation?

You can simply print it on paper because it would be no problem for god to move a needle on a picture of a clock-like device.

Ah, so it's the cost of a sheet of paper and a little bit of ink.

[Nay_Sayer]

You can simply print it on paper because it would be no problem for god to move a needle on a picture of a clock-like device.

Ah, so it's the cost of a sheet of paper and a little bit of ink.

Free. You could just draw one.

[no one]

Or, you could just ask godiboi to send you one.

[The Grand Nudger]

Good Morning, All,

Happy weekend!

It doesn't make any difference no matter how we concieve of it.  If, for example, we propose that god is not a thing..then every thing still popped into existence from...not a thing.

I’d like to respond to this. Mostly for the digital archeologists who will find this in the far, far future. (like in five years :-)

I would agree that we (theists and philosophers who think about this stuff) say that every thing pops into existence from not a thing. I have no problem with that. I am not saying stuff pops into existence from nothing, though.

If we call “thing” as something from this universe, e.g. quantum foam, rocks, lizards, gravitational fields, then no, God is not a thing. God is spirit. We can think of our own spirit since we know it best. Spirit is that in us by which we know and love. Our body knows nothing. It loves nothing. Bodily pleasures are not even enjoyed by the body. It does react physically to them, but it is the knowing mind that enjoys the reactions or doesn’t.

So, yes. All things in the universe popped into existence from an eternal spirit. They have to come from somewhere. The universe can’t come from itself. Further, this source from outside the universe has to be eternal, that is has no beginning (or end). As before, if it has a beginning, then what created it?

That does not mean the eternal spirit is the Christian God. I am not making that leap here.

-and there we have it.  It's not that nothing pops into existence from no thing.  In fact, according to you..or to your version of theism, all things popped into existence from no thing.  Regardless of whether or not your silly god exists, we can say with authority that the argument for god from things popping into existence is disingenuous... at best.  

That's why this argument fails.  Not on any item of disputable fact - it's worse, the form of the argument (natch) is faulty.  You could plug in nothing but absolute facts and it still wouldn't be informative....but that's christianity for you.  

I concur. Without the concept of spirit, the argument falls apart.

With or without "the concept of spirit" the argument falls apart - as we can repeat the very same questions for "spirit" that we have for gods or things or popping into existence - which you just acknowledged to be defeaters.

Which is not, in point of fact, anything to do with the god of classical theology.  

I’m missing something. Why does this (the argument?) not have anything to do with the god of classical theology? What am I missing in what you’re saying?

I guess I'll have to be the bearer of bad news.  Christians killed all the folks who believed in the god of classical theology™.  Hunted them down, declared their thoughts crime, and killed them.  No christian, anywhere, ever, has ever been talking about the god of classical theology.  They're all talking about christ - their god. In classical theology, christians silly god is a mid-level employee of the real god. There's something perversely delicious in contemporary abrahamists continued attempts to appropriate the pagan philosophies they eagerly and thoroughly stamped out. If any of you really believed that the classical philosphers were on to something..you'd be fucking atheists. That's how it ended for them.

[Mister Agenda]

I have a very hard time with ‘nothingness.’ I have always :-) been in something. Some movies try to show it as dark and empty, but even that assumes space, time and something to perceive.

Do you consider philosophical nothingness to be different than material nothingness? When I think of nothingness, I am considering the latter.  I haven’t thought through the former. For example, if God created the universe out of nothing, I think of that as no thing that was material. I think that would have to include energy since the two are connected.

The closest to nothing physics can get is quantum foam, and it's hypothetically capable of spawning universe all day long. Does/would quantum foam count as the eternal thing that must exist if anything now exists?

Yes, that is pretty close, but, if it turns out to work, it’s still not nothing. So, then the question is did that come from something else? If so, what? If not, then I suppose it would always exist in some sense.

Enjoy your weekend!

Philosophical nothingness I would say is no matter, energy, time, or space; all of those are 'somethings', the presence of which contradict philosophical 'pure nothingness'. I suppose philosophical nothingness could have existed at some point for an infinitesimal moment, and instantly became something because, without time, it couldn't last for any length of it.

I'm not hanging my hat on a particular cosmological theory, but some physicists make the case that it's not possible for quantum foam to not exist (it's an uncertainty principle thing). But saying something like that definitively about conditions lacking a universe is untestable.

I hope your weekend was pleasant.

[Gwaithmir]

No, it doesn't operate on batteries. The needle can only move by a god's divine power. I purchased this device over 15 years ago. The needle hasn't moved. 

How much does it cost, adjusting for inflation?

I think I paid about $5 plus shipping and handling at the time. The company that made these things went out of business several years ago. You might be able to acquire some used ones from eBay.

[Goosebump]

This MUST have been said before:

But if He/She/It came down Quentin Tarantino style from the sky and said "made you and rule all you mother fuckers! Water? What water it's fucking wine mother fuckers! now bend that god damn mother fucking knee!"

That um, well that I think. That probably would do it.

[Prycejosh1987]

Visions do not make God real as amazing as they would be. What does is what we would get from His word and how it relates within. A true message cannot be manipulated.

[arewethereyet]

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