Dying Well

[Jamie Boy]

Today I came across "The Chaplain Who Doesn't Believe in God," an interview between Vox journalist Sean Illing and humanist chaplain Devin Moss. Moss was chosen by an Oklahoma death row inmate to be the spiritual counsel present at his execution (which, I believe, was carried out in December 2023). As an aside, that a chaplaincy could be held by an atheist is something that caught me by surprise. But what really set me to thinking was Moss's response to a question about how he, as an atheist/humanist chaplain, could offer solace to someone who does not believe in an afterlife. Here's his answer:

Death is hard for everybody and it’s hard because we avoid it personally and we most definitely avoid it as a culture. How a culture dies is a direct reflection of how they live and we do not die well in modern America. I would probably take out the border between faith and non-faith when it comes to how to die well and I would just say that dying well requires work that is to be done while you’re still very much alive, whether you have faith in a supernatural power or not.

I find an interesting talking point in Moss's response: that a failure to live well directly translates into a failure to die well. I'm curious to see what you might have to say about this. 

For me, I wonder if religious dogma might actually limit a person's ability to live well. After the affairs of this life are all said and done, eternity awaits, right? So, the flicker of time one spends on this side of death cannot possibly carry much significance. 


NOTE: Being less than 30-days new to these forums, I didn't provide a link to the article I referenced above. You shouldn't have any trouble locating it on your own, however.

[Rev. Rye]

Is this it?

The chaplain who doesn’t believe in God.

[Jamie Boy]

Is this it?

The chaplain who doesn’t believe in God.

That's the one. Thanks.

[no one]

Whether you die rescuing orphans and puppies from a raging inferno or choking on a dildo, you're still dead.

The manner in which you meet your demise may result in your loved ones being cast in a promising or an embarrassing light. You will still be dead though, and it will not concern you in the slightest.

[The Grand Nudger]

I wonder if religious dogma might actually limit a person's ability to live well. After the affairs of this life are all said and done, eternity awaits, right? So, the flicker of time one spends on this side of death cannot possibly carry much significance. 

Well, that's one thing....and it's tragic but not the worst that religious dogma can do.  Religious dogma can also prevent a person from living or dying well even when it takes more effort to do poorly.  Even when...especially when, it seems significant.  

I find hate exhausting.  Uncontrollable...and exhausting, for example.

For me, that's the real sin (and real danger) of abrahamism. Not the usual in your face shit - but the fucked up subtle shit that makes otherwise decent people go out of their way to shit on the next guy even if it fucks them in the process.

[Belacqua]

[...]

For me, I wonder if religious dogma might actually limit a person's ability to live well. 

[...]

Serious question, and to answer it I'd say we'd need to settle two big issues:

1) which dogma? and 

2) what does it mean to live well?

So, like -- that's pretty much all of philosophy right there. 

Presumably there can be better dogma and worse dogma. In theory, there might even be true dogma. That is, a set of principles laid down as true that actually are true. Since this is forum is extremely unsympathetic to such ideas, probably nobody here accepts that there could be a set of such principles that everyone really ought to live by. 

Of course if the dogma is bad, and you tried to live by it, then your life could get messed up. 

We live in an extremely liberal time, in which living one's own way is seen as the best thing. People will assert this as if it is dogmatically true. Of course there have been arguments throughout history that because of the kind of animals we are, there are certain parameters which should govern our behavior. Aristotle, for example, thinks that the nature of human beings points toward a certain end, and people who choose something else are simply incorrect. Dante adopts this in a Christian version, in which Christian dogma is not an arbitrary set of laws from on high but simply the best way for animals like us to be healthy and happy. 

So if there is, as has often been asserted, a set of parameters limiting what it means to live well, then a good dogma would be useful for living that way. 

After the affairs of this life are all said and done, eternity awaits, right? So, the flicker of time one spends on this side of death cannot possibly carry much significance. 

I don't know of any religion which asserts this. While some do think you'll be in eternity after death, that doesn't mean that the current life is of no significance. In fact building the right conditions of eternity for yourself is often said to depend on how you live your life in the world. 

Also, aiming toward eternity doesn't necessarily mean giving up good things in this life. Sometimes people talk as if the idea of heaven prevents them from having the kind of fun they really want. But if that kind of fun would prevent you from going to heaven, then it isn't a good thing to do. Basically, such people are saying they want to do bad things -- but it seems to me that a life of doing bad things is not living well. Unless your idea of living well is just being irresponsible and getting away with it all the time.

[Fake Messiah]

Serious question, and to answer it I'd say we'd need to settle two big issues:

1) which dogma? and 

2) what does it mean to live well?

Living well means living as you want and not as others order you to live. Religion is the one that limits people to live how they desire and thus live well and fulfilling life. Like if someone is gay, religion frequently tells him or her they must not be gay, which leads to that person not living a happy and thus fulfilling life.

Or if you are a woman and you want to go to school, religion in many countries forbids you. Or if you are a woman who got pregnant so now she wants an abortion in order to go to college, religion orders her to push the pregnancy till the end, get a low-paying job, and live in poverty. And so on.

[Belacqua]

Living well means living as you want and not as others order you to live.

You assert this dogmatically.

Do you have an argument as to why this is true, or is it something you just know?

[Fake Messiah]

Living well means living as you want and not as others order you to live.

You assert this dogmatically.

Do you have an argument as to why this is true, or is it something you just know?

I did explain it, but you ignored it. Why do you think people fight for their rights? Like for gay marriage. Or to end slavery. Or right to go to school.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Living well means living as you want and not as others order you to live.

You assert this dogmatically.

Do you have an argument as to why this is true, or is it something you just know?

It seems fairly self-evident, along the lines of such statements as 'trees are made of wood' and 'cyanide is bad for people'.

Boru