A Philosophy of War and Conflict

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

@Leonardo17

I said exactly what I said. The reason why I have absolutely no problem at all with atheism is that atheist are very clear about what they say. They mean what they say and most of them act accordingly with what they say. Can I say the same with theists in general?

What does that have to do with reconciling these two statements you made?

  And I grant myself the freedom to say that there is no “Islamist group” or “Muslim extremist” or “Jihadi Group”. And there is no “Christian” such group either. I know next to nothing about Judaism but I don’t think there can be such thing in Judaism either. 

and

Maybe the current state of Zionism is a mixture of colonialism and religious extremism that is set to take us strait to WWIII. 

Please explain how there can be no extremism in Judaism but Zionism - an entirely Jewish movement - is partially explained by religious extremism.

Boru

[The Grand Nudger]

Grand Nudger:
During the first two years of the war there has been long negotiations on that subject: Ukrainians had to take their grain through Romanian ports or they had to sell it in Europe causing huge unrest among European producers. All I am saying in that it is normal for wars to become gradually more civilized. Because oil refineries have a dual purpose (both military and civilian) it is not 100% clear weather hitting them is a war crime or not. But I still think it would be ok for Ukraine and the rest of the world to not hit Russian grain ships. This is a serious issue: You can’t send all that grain to the bottom of the sea while there are living skeletons in other parts of the world who depend on that food for their very survival.

It is 100% clear that hitting dual use oil refineries is not a war crime.  There are lots of things people think are or should be war crimes that are not...and it's never a war crime the first time, no matter what it is.  Russia is, ofc, fucked.... because they've turned their entire economy to war production and they've done it explicitly.  Likely thinking that the announcement itself would be leverage.

Take Wildberries as an example.  The russian version of amazon...and a legit company that didn't become what it was because of proximity to putins orbit.  Now the target of a relentless drone campaign.  Putin..master strategist that he is..in his infinite wisdom.... decided he'd let that company provide his soldiers with the goods they need.  Not just clothes and food and comfort stuff.  Night vision goggles, ballistic vests.  Similarly, he decided that they'd rely on russian soldiers buying civilian vehicles rather than properly equiping mechanized brigades...and now, since most of the vehicles russian trooops use are povs without military plates, and because you have to have a military plate to get fuel, the soldiers on the frontlines can't get fuel for those tech trucks.

In all, it's a breathtaking and prolonged series of own goals, and it means that the russian government either can't supply their war of choice..or won't.  Take your pick.

As far as whether or not ukraine can send all that grain to the bottom of the sea...the reality of the conflict says they can.  Ukraine, with no navy, damaged or sunk over 200 russian vessels in just a few weeks during operation molochka.  This is salient because russia's strategic objective in occupying ukraine is control of that shipping.  That's why they invaded, if you were wondering.  I don't think ukraine believes that it's their responsibility to ensure that russian shipping customers are satisfied.  I think they believe it's their responsibility to stop russia from stacking up more and more skeletons in ukraine, and so long as putin believes the shipping juice will be worth the squeeze for him and his buddies...we've already established he doesn't give a fuck about russia or russians....they won't stop.  There's no number of dead russians, dead ukranians, or dead anything other-thans so long as it keeps his orbit in power and profit.

Bringing me to the main thrust.  If you think all this shit is bad.....then you should advocate for the people actually doing it, and setting it in motion, and refusing to stop...to stop.  Not for ukraine to let up.  Putin could get as many grain ships as he wants through those waterways tomorrow.  He's the only person who can...
 

Also:
 
   This not so normal person called Donald Trump has wasted almost all of his Missiles on Iran:
 
https://www.yahoo.com/news/politics/arti...39538.html
 
Why are Iranian oil production sites still standing?
 
(And that’s a very personal question: I mean if it’s not a war crime to hit these facilities why isn’t he obliterating them all at once?   )

Because he made a talk show host the head of dod, that guy purged the ranks of competence in favor of loyalty, and weapons manufacturers rake us over the coals.   Ukraine is about to start producing our weapons cheaper than we do.  Maybe we can buy some off of them. The King of America doesn't mind warcrimes. We've been doing them closer to home at a steady clip... and it looks pretty likely that we're doing them in iran as well. Even if we aren't...he keeps demanding that we do and threatening that we will! So even on this objections own ludicrous grounds we can say with 100% certainty that the inability of the mad king to beat the other guy has nothing to do with whether or not it would be a warcrime. Just like his idol Vlad....who laughs at him behind his back like the pathetic sack of shit he is, while feeding iran intel on us positions.
 

- Yes Russia is a fascist state. And I agree this as someone who knows many Russians and appreciates them as a culture. But I don’t know if Putin himself knows about the evil he did to his very own country and that’s all I am going to say on that issue.

"If only the czar knew!"  

He knows, though you have that worry in common with a great many russians on social media.  Do his subordinates lie to him?  Absolutely...but that's a feature of the system he built, not a bug. He then parrots those lies to maintain his domestic position and when they inevitably prove themselves to be lies....he blames his subordinates. All of those investigations for corruption as though corruption weren't the hiring metrics to begin with? Nonsense.
 
 

- War is an awful thing that shouldn’t happen at all. But my answer to that is this:
 
Everyone in this world needs a standing army. I used to be very anti-army / anti-war when I was younger. Now this has changed a lot. I truly believe we all need our soldiers. I mean soldiers who are there to protect our freedom and way of life.
 
So we are back where we have started: What are the ethics of conflict in the 21st century?

Are russian soldiers protecting russians freedom and way of life?  Or are they looters and rapists following a madman to their own destruction?

The ethics of conflict in the 21st century are split between professional militaries in functional states, mercs, convicts, and conscripts in totalitarian dictatorships, and child soldiers following tribal warlords in shitholes. I know which one I prefer. If you couldn't even form an opinion on my ethical question, deciding only that war is awful, how do you propose to form an opinion on the ethics of conflict and which model of conflict is more or less ethical in that spread? Did you really draw an ethical blank, or are you simply incapable of accepting what russia...and not just putin, but the russian people too, have done.... and why?

Bringing us back round to your complaint. Ukraine isn't starving people in africa. Russias failed smash and grab against a suprisingly resilient ukranian people is starving people in africa while they kill them in ukraine.

[Leonardo17]

BrianSoddingBoru:
 
Let me share this video with you:
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shXFgsxaXXE
 
You may have heard about the migration crisis that started in the Spanish enclave of Ceuta in Morocco and all European right wing parties calling for Spain to be suspended from the Schengen Zone despite the fact that almost all migrants who came to the Enclave a few days ago were almost immediately sent back to Morocco.
 
So we have Christians calling for more empathy and love toward fellow human beings and we have Christians and other who are mainly reacting with fear and asking (very legitimate) questions like “What do we do with all these refugees in our soil?”.
 
So the hard fact is that there is no one type of Jew and/or one type of Buddhist in this world. That’s a very important issue: As a believer in Islam I can tell you straight away that there is only one holy book in Islam right? But people are still able to add and extract and omit meanings in translations, distort historical accounts about the life of the prophet so that what is a purely spiritual self-helping endeavor is turned into a tool of creating flocks of brainless people that are easily manipulated and the core ideology is so distorted that the religion of peace (!) kills some 5000 people who did nothing to anybody in the 9/11 attacks.
 
My point of view on this is this: I don’t go into the intellectual debate with anyone anymore. That’s a really exhausting and endless type of endeavor (if you ask me). Instead I focus on the spiritual. Being into these things since decades I can more or less tell the difference between what comes from what I call “our Higher Self” and what come from the Ego. Pope Francis’s message above is a very spiritual message. He probably knows (or knew) that Europe cannot simply open it’s border to whoever has it hard in his/her country or origin. But he is reminding us of our common humanity and is calling us to make a compromise.
 
Israel too is a very “religious” project if you ask any of those hardliner Jewish nationalists and Jewish supremacists. I personally do not see any difference between them and/or the IRI and/or the political Islamists that are present inside all Muslim majority countries.
 
As an example: The best place to fool people and to convince them to give you some money or something else is around Churches and Mosques. People who have just been engaged in more spiritual endeavors will be more likely to share with you some resources even if you are a man or woman who simply is too lazy to work.
 
In the same way: The average men and women of our age are still very ignorant and gullible if you ask me. So this is how evangelical Christians are ending up supporting a very erratic US President (if you ask me) and are doing so because they think that this is the most “Christian” thing to do.
 
I’m miles away from that. I care only about the core spiritual messages in the main spiritual traditions. So I sort of agree with Pope Francis’s message above and disagree with the MAGA base in the US. And I am doing this based on my two decades or more of spiritual practice. I think that Political Islamists and Jewish supremacists are wrong. I think that Pope Francis is right. I am free to take a position on this right?

[The Grand Nudger]

Yes yes yes, we know. Whenever people do shitty things you think they're not doing their religions right. You're wrong, but whatever, who cares.

[Deesse23]

 
You may have heard about the migration crisis that started in the Spanish enclave of Ceuta in Morocco and all European right wing parties calling for Spain to be suspended from the Schengen Zone....

...which was monumentally stupid...and irrelevant. Do you know why?

But people are still able to add and extract and omit meanings in translations, distort historical accounts about the life of the prophet so that what is a purely spiritual self-helping endeavor is turned into a tool of creating flocks of brainless people that are easily manipulated and the core ideology is so distorted that the religion of peace (!) kills some 5000 people who did nothing to anybody in the 9/11 attacks.

Please tell us more about the core ideology of this religion of peace, the true core ideology!
 

My point of view on this is this: I don’t go into the intellectual debate with anyone anymore. That’s a really exhausting and endless type of endeavor (if you ask me)

Its because you are by and large ignorant about the topics you like to discuss here, and unfortunately there is no "nice" way to tell you so. You would be well advised to listen to what people tell you when they put your silly and sometimes contradictory (see Boru) beliefs to the test, instead of going on full defense mode and wearing "spirituality" as a shiled in front of you, shielding your views from criticism.

Instead I focus on the spiritual. Being into these things since decades I can more or less tell the difference between what comes from what I call “our Higher Self” and what come from the Ego.

Word salad, and we already have shown you, didnt we?
As long as you dont realize that your "spiritual" nonsense is just that, you wont ever lean/improve. Admitting to doing this for decades, just emphasizes the severity of your "spiritual problem" and the urgency to address it.
Again: No nice way to tell you, but i am trying to do you the favour here. Please take the opportunity.

Pope Francis’s message above is a very spiritual message. He probably knows (or knew) that Europe cannot simply open it’s border to whoever has it hard in his/her country or origin.

Which is completely irrelevant to tens of thousands coming to Ceuta, because it is not part of the Schengen Area. There never was a question as of "do or dont we let those people enter Mainland Spain/EU", since there was no legal base to do so.

Israel too is a very “religious” project if you ask any of those hardliner Jewish nationalists and Jewish supremacists. I personally do not see any difference between them and/or the IRI and/or the political Islamists that are present inside all Muslim majority countries.

One of the few things you actually got right, i grant you that.
 

As an example: The best place to fool people and to convince them to give you some money or something else is around Churches and Mosques. People who have just been engaged in more spiritual endeavors will be more likely to share with you some resources even if you are a man or woman who simply is too lazy to work.

Yes, people who are engaged in "spiritual endeavors" can be easily exploited and often suspend reason and critical thinking to be a victim of such things. You just told us you are engaged in spirituality for decades. Are you able to make the next obvious conclusion about yourself, or ....oh wait, i got it, you are doing the "true" spirituality the only "correct" one as you have told us in another thread.
 

In the same way: The average men and women of our age are still very ignorant and gullible if you ask me.

What age do you think i am? What is your age? How can anyone as ignorant and gullible like you judge others ignorance and gullibility!? Sounds more like a coping mechanism to me. Its not you who is ignorant, its everybody else!

So this is how evangelical Christians are ending up supporting a very erratic US President (if you ask me) and are doing so because they think that this is the most “Christian” thing to do.

Its because they are full of...spirituality, thus ignoring reality and facts and still thinking he is sent by God, part of Gods plan. You are probably just an american passport and some Mega Church visit away from being one of them, but you are too ignorant to know or admit. You think your "spirituality" shields you from becoming religious. You fail to see that you already are religious. "Spirituality" is your god, you believe without good reason, without having a methodology/tool to decide what is right and wrong, you have "faith in spirituality", and you shield your precious belief from scrutiny. "i am doing it for decades" ist just a prime example of how bad your defense to criticism is.

 

I’m miles away from that.

Rather an inch.

I care only about the core spiritual messages in the main spiritual traditions.

And yet you can not present a reliable methodology to do so. You cant even define what "spirituality" is. You have no tool whatsoever to determine what is "right" and "wrong" about them.

So I sort of agree with Pope Francis’s message above and disagree with the MAGA base in the US. And I am doing this based on my two decades or more of spiritual practice.

How did your "spiritual practice" inform you about the Pope being correct and MAGA being wrong? Please lay open your "spiritual" methodology.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

@Leonardo17

 I don’t go into the intellectual debate with anyone anymore. 

That explains a lot.

Boru

[Angrboda]

@Leonardo17

 I don’t go into the intellectual debate with anyone anymore. 

That explains a lot.

Boru

Use it or lose it.

[The Grand Nudger]

I’m miles away from that.

Rather an inch.

This is, imo, a genuine blindspot for religious people.  If someone feels personally compelled towards x by their faith, I can see why they wuld not understand how another person was personally compelled by that same faith to another thing y - even something directly contradictory to x.  This happens internally, ofc, as well..where a person is compelled by their faith to both x and y, even contradictory x's and y's, depending on what time of day you happen to ask the prompting question.  In that state, and again imo, it's probably difficult to understand the groaning and quick objections from an irreligious or areligious framework.  They're thinking, "but I'm doing/saying the good things..?"...wich by that virtue is The Right Stuff™.  The trouble with religion in this specific regard is that it is truly content nuetral.  Religiosity is, more than anything else, a matter of intensity, not object.  It can lend itself (and has lended itself) to any object.  We measure a person or cultures religiosity not by the contents of their spiritual beliefs but by their commitment to and compulsion by them.  

Case in point, orthodox christianity is on both sides of the russo-ukranian war.  Russian orthodox christianity has deemed this a holy war...and not even against ukraine.  Against "decadent western values".  I guess they were aiming their missiles at decadent western values and they all just keep falling on ukranian orthodox heads by accident.  It does beg the question..though, assuming there is some right way to do orthodox christianity - whether the russians or the ukranians have it right?  There's our x and our y.  If the ukranians are the ones doing orthodox christian spirituality right, in comparison...then the boats don't matter...and if the russians are doing orthodox christian spirituality right..then the russian boats still don't matter. That's a choice they (either the russians or the ukranians) made and those are the consequences for other people...you know, defending their freedoms and way of life, spiritually speaking.

...and..if all of this is a non issue, if there's no necessary or necessarily spiritual objection to ukranians sinking russian boats full of grain....and thus "better spirituality" would not have any effect anyway...then there's something else informing all of this. Some idea about ethics that doesn't need to invoke a single ghost or god karmic law in explanation, and which could not be defended, improved, or bettered by the invocation of that nebulous s word in the first place. I'd love to get to that point, though there's no guarantee the conclusion would be improved, because we're certainly free to believe that a country a being invaded by a country b has an ethical and moral duty to allow country b to fund it's occupationary apparatus so long as people an countries c-z like or need whatever product the invader is selling. Is that what we believe, for that reason..rather than some spiritual one, whatever that would even mean?