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Quote:You know, in the first centuries since christianity became an official religion, the situation was like this: the Empire there was now an organized religion: priests, bishops, archbishops, etc. whom the people were indeed following blindly. So there was absolutely no need to punish a no-one-cares-for John for believing otherwise.
Quote:Three centuries of persecution of the pagans
or, read it all if you wish. Here's a sample:
Quote:375 The temple of Asclepius in Epidaurus, Greece, is closed down by the Christians.
380 On 27th February Christianity becomes the exclusive religion of the Roman Empire by an edict of the Emperor Flavius Theodosius, requiring that:
"All the various nations which are subject to our clemency and moderation should continue in the profession of that religion which was delivered to the Romans by the divine Apostle Peter."
The non-Christians are called “loathsome, heretics, stupid and blind”.
In another edict, Theodosius calls “insane” those that do not believe to the Christian God and outlaws all disagreement with the Church dogmas.
Ambrosius, bishop of Milan, begins the destruction of pagan temples of his area. The Christian priests lead the hungry mob against the temple of goddess Demeter in Eleusis and try to lynch the hierophants Nestorius and Priskus. The 95 year old hierophant Nestorius ends the Eleusinian Mysteries and announces "the predominance of mental darkness over the human race."
381 At the Council of Constantinople the 'Holy Spirit' is declared 'Divine' (thus sanctioning a triune god). On 2nd May, Theodosius deprives of all their rights any Christians who return to the pagan religion. Throughout the Eastern Empire the pagan temples and libraries are looted or burned down. On 21st December, Theodosius outlaws visits to Hellenic temples.
In Constantinople, the Temple of Aphrodite is turned into a brothel and the temples of the Sun and Artemis to stables.
382 “Hellelujah” (“Glory to Yahweh”) is imposed in the Christian mass.
384 Theodosius orders the Praetorian Prefect Maternus Cynegius, a dedicated Christian, to cooperate with local bishops and destroy the temples of the pagans in Northern Greece and Minor Asia.
385 to 388 Prefect Maternus Cynegius, encouraged by his fanatic wife, and bishop 'Saint' Marcellus with his gangs, scour the countryside and sack and destroy hundreds of Hellenic temples, shrines and altars. Among others they destroy the temple of Edessa, the Cabeireion of Imbros, the temple of Zeus in Apamea, the temple of Apollo in Dydima and all the temples of Palmyra.
Thousands of innocent pagans from all sides of the empire suffer martyrdom in the notorious death camps of Skythopolis.
You can't believe the pious horseshit of believers, you know.
June 16, 2011 at 10:59 am (This post was last modified: June 16, 2011 at 5:21 pm by Zenith.)
I'll try to be quick about this, as I am... busy right now... If you'll reply to this, please understand my further delay...
(June 14, 2011 at 2:13 pm)Minimalist Wrote:
Quote:You know, in the first centuries since christianity became an official religion, the situation was like this: the Empire there was now an organized religion: priests, bishops, archbishops, etc. whom the people were indeed following blindly. So there was absolutely no need to punish a no-one-cares-for John for believing otherwise.
Er....no. Not even close to reality.
from my quick search regarding heretics & Theodosius, I found this:
Quote:"Soz 7.12 notes that, although Theodosius prescribed severe punishments in the laws against heretics, he did not order their enforcement, and as an explanation, he points out that, in fact, Theodosius did not intend to punish his subjects but to intimidate them in order to prompt their spontaneous conversion."
So, regarding heretics, I think the situation was approximatively how I told. But indeed, transforming the 'heretics' in a very ridiculous and shameful way doesn't influence the population to treat them very well.
As about pagans, as long as they weren't tortured/killed for the sole reason of being pagans, I don't think we should 'complain' too much. It seems to have been a fight against their religion (to destroy the "religion" of paganism) rather than against people (to kill people who believed in gods).
Quote:Three centuries of persecution of the pagans
or, read it all if you wish. Here's a sample:
Quote:375 The temple of Asclepius in Epidaurus, Greece, is closed down by the Christians.
380 On 27th February Christianity becomes the exclusive religion of the Roman Empire by an edict of the Emperor Flavius Theodosius, requiring that:
"All the various nations which are subject to our clemency and moderation should continue in the profession of that religion which was delivered to the Romans by the divine Apostle Peter."
The non-Christians are called “loathsome, heretics, stupid and blind”.
In another edict, Theodosius calls “insane” those that do not believe to the Christian God and outlaws all disagreement with the Church dogmas.
Ambrosius, bishop of Milan, begins the destruction of pagan temples of his area. The Christian priests lead the hungry mob against the temple of goddess Demeter in Eleusis and try to lynch the hierophants Nestorius and Priskus. The 95 year old hierophant Nestorius ends the Eleusinian Mysteries and announces "the predominance of mental darkness over the human race."
381 At the Council of Constantinople the 'Holy Spirit' is declared 'Divine' (thus sanctioning a triune god). On 2nd May, Theodosius deprives of all their rights any Christians who return to the pagan religion. Throughout the Eastern Empire the pagan temples and libraries are looted or burned down. On 21st December, Theodosius outlaws visits to Hellenic temples.
In Constantinople, the Temple of Aphrodite is turned into a brothel and the temples of the Sun and Artemis to stables.
382 “Hellelujah” (“Glory to Yahweh”) is imposed in the Christian mass.
384 Theodosius orders the Praetorian Prefect Maternus Cynegius, a dedicated Christian, to cooperate with local bishops and destroy the temples of the pagans in Northern Greece and Minor Asia.
385 to 388 Prefect Maternus Cynegius, encouraged by his fanatic wife, and bishop 'Saint' Marcellus with his gangs, scour the countryside and sack and destroy hundreds of Hellenic temples, shrines and altars. Among others they destroy the temple of Edessa, the Cabeireion of Imbros, the temple of Zeus in Apamea, the temple of Apollo in Dydima and all the temples of Palmyra.
Thousands of innocent pagans from all sides of the empire suffer martyrdom in the notorious death camps of Skythopolis.
You can't believe the pious horseshit of believers, you know.
You know Min, everything of what you quoted seems very plausible... except the last statement (the death camps).
The thing with the brothel also sounds odd, but it seems that there were brothels allowed until 6th century, although I doubt the Emperor transformed the temple in a brothel (I'm thinking about politics, bishops around him, reputations, etc.). Anyway, a question... if you know more about the history of pagan religions... weren't there instances/rules where people fucked in a temple? (e.g. temple of a god/goddess of fertility) I remember that there were. So in that case, the transformation shouldn't sound as blatant as first appears.
I did a quick search on google to see if there is anything non-biased regarding the death camps (I mean, pure history, from a trustworthy source - trustworthy source meaning, a historical site or something, not a blog or who knows whose site) and I found none.
So, if you insist that the last line is correct (about Skythopolis), then please show me a trustworthy source (i.e. a place in a historical book or a site of history) that confirms it.
What I've found in a quick look on google, is these two:
http://www.oodegr.com/english/paganismos...polis1.htm Wrote:“…..Years 385 - 388 … In the death camps of Scythopolis, thousands of innocent people undergo martyrdom: “Even from the most distant reaches of the Empire, citizens of every age and every social class were dragged there, bound in chains. And many of them died along the way, or in the prisons en route. And those who managed to survive, ended up in Scythopolis – an out-of-the-way town of Palestine, where the instruments of torture and execution had been set up”, according to Ammianus Marcellinus….” (his text is apparently the basis of the neo-Paganists’ argument).
The page quoted above seems to be of an orthodox site, and that pages brings a refutation of it. I didn't read it, so don't ask me about it, I just read a few lines about what is said.
And the other interesting thing found is:
Quote:359
In Skythopolis, Syria, christians organise the first death camps for the torture and execution of arrested Gentiles from all around the Empire.
The one above has a different date than the first one, and moreover, is before Justinian the Apostate (who lived in 361-63). So if one claims that such a thing happened before him, then Julian the Apostate should have punished the christians likewise - which he didn't (Julian's persecutions were not severe).
ok, so if we talk about a further date (i.e.385 or 388), I found the actual dates of persecutions by Emperor Theodosius as 389-391 and after (from here). Anyway, they do not sound something like "death camps" (stuff like "let's exterminate the pagans!"). Moreover, it wasn't the majority's desire to treat the pagans badly, but the Emperor (though this shouldn't matter too much, it is interesting to note: most to all decisions that were taken, were taken and imposed by Emperors, according to their own views. The Emperors also imposed their own views in ecumenical councils and stuff like that).
Now, some 'questions' for you, as I am curios...
If you had been an Emperor/Sovereign over all world, with the supreme authority, and having the majority of the world population atheistic (e.g. 60%)... tell me that...
Quote:The non-Christians are called “loathsome, heretics, stupid and blind”.
You would never call the christians "loathsome", "stupid" or "blind".
Quote:In another edict, Theodosius calls “insane” those that do not believe to the Christian God and outlaws all disagreement with the Church dogmas.
You would not call "insane" those who do not "see" that there is no God/god.
Quote:Ambrosius, bishop of Milan, begins the destruction of pagan temples of his area. The Christian priests lead the hungry mob against the temple of goddess Demeter in Eleusis and try to lynch the hierophants Nestorius and Priskus. The 95 year old hierophant Nestorius ends the Eleusinian Mysteries and announces "the predominance of mental darkness over the human race."
Having the ultimate power and being able to bring down Christianity, you wouldn't destroy churches.
Quote:Theodosius deprives of all their rights any Christians who return to the pagan religion
You wouldn't use unfair methods to prevent atheists from converting to a religion, like christianity.
Quote:Throughout the Eastern Empire the pagan temples and libraries are looted or burned down.
You wouldn't destroy christian scriptures and other religious books.
As for this, though I doubt it is authentic,
Quote:In Constantinople, the Temple of Aphrodite is turned into a brothel and the temples of the Sun and Artemis to stables.
And that you would never turn a church into a brothel.
And after you do that, I'll consider you a better person.
By the way, regarding things like this:
Quote:Throughout the Eastern Empire the pagan temples and libraries are looted or burned down. On 21st December, Theodosius outlaws visits to Hellenic temples.
I don't understand you, seriously: some time ago you perfectly agreed with the romans killing christians for getting into religious meetings... And now you say that christians doing likewise to pagans is blatant? By the way, they didn't have "church" buildings to gather there, back then. They gathered where they could.
June 16, 2011 at 9:09 pm (This post was last modified: June 16, 2011 at 9:11 pm by Justtristo.)
The trinity was definitely not what the first followers of Jesus believed in. They were Jews who saw Jesus as the Messiah and adopted as a "son of god", rather being the second member of the godhead. Likewise the Holy Spirit was seen as just a limb of God.
By the way I have heard that the first 18 verses of the gospel of John (describing Jesus as the word of god) might have been added by scribes after the Gospel was written.
June 16, 2011 at 10:02 pm (This post was last modified: June 16, 2011 at 10:05 pm by Minimalist.)
Um, I'm not quite sure what your problem is, Zen. Are you saying that you want to see this in a history book? Because it took me less than 1.5 seconds on Google to find the History of Ammianus Marcellinus in an English translation. You can't get better than a primary source.
Quote:8. The city which was chosen to witness these fatal
scenes was Scythopolis in Palestine, which for two reasons
seemed the most suitable of all places ; first, because it
was little frequented and secondly, because it was half-
way between Antioch and Alexandria, from which city
many of those brought befogs this tribunal came.
AJ). 359.] NUMEROUS EXECUTIONS. 209
9. One of the first persons accused was Simplicius, the
son of Philip ; a man who, after having been prefect and
consul, was now impeached on the ground that he was
said to have consulted the oracle how to obtain the empire.
He was sentenced to the torture by the express command
of the emperor, who in these cases never erred on the side
of mercy ; but by some special fate he was saved from it,
and with uninjured body was condemned to distant banish-
ment.
10. The next victim was Parnasius, who had been pre-
fect of Egypt, a man of simple manners, but now in danger
of being condemned to death, and glad to escape with
exile : because lojig ago he had been heard to say that
when he left Patrse in Achaia, the place of his birth, with
the view of procuring some high office, he had in a dream
seen himself conducted on his road by several figures in
tragic robes.
11. The next was Andronicus, subsequently celebrated
for his liberal accomplishments and his poetry ; he was
brought before the court without having given any real
ground for suspicion of any kind, and defended himself so
vigorously that he was acquitted.
12. There was also Demetrius, surnamed Chytras, a
philosopher, of great age, but still firm in mind and body ;
he, when charged with having frequently offered sacrifices
in the temple of his oracle, could not deny it ; but affirmed
thai, for the sake of propitiating the deity, he had con-
stantly done so from his early youth, and not with any
idea of aiming at any higher fortune by his questions ; nor
had he known any one who had aimed at such. And
though he was long on the rack he supported it with great
constancy, never varying in his statement, till at length
he was acquitted and allowed to retire to Alexandria, where
he was bom.
13. These and a few others, justice, coming to the aid of
truth, delivered from their imminent dangers. But as
occupations extended more widely, involving numbers
without end in their snares, many perished ; some with
their bodies mangled on the rack ; others were condemned
to death and confiscation of their goods ; while Paulus kept
on inventing groundless accusations, as if he had a store
of lies on which to draw, and suggesting various pretences
210 AMMIANUS MARCELLJXUS. [Ite. XIX. C. xn.
for injuring people, so that on his nod, it may be said,
the safety of every one in the place depended.
Quote:I don't understand you, seriously: some time ago you perfectly agreed with the romans killing christians for getting into religious meetings... And now you say that christians doing likewise to pagans is blatant? By the way, they didn't have "church" buildings to gather there, back then. They gathered where they could.
First off, Pliny made it clear that the secret meetings were regarded as "political" not "religious." The Romans did not give a shit about religion; they were concerned about sedition.
Of greater importance is that you miss the point...perhaps accidentally. I don't give a flying fuck what the emperor did 1500 years ago. He was the emperor and he could kill whoever the fuck he wanted. That's what being emperor means. BUT. When modern xtians trot out this holier-than-thou horseshit about how their marvelous religion spread peacefully across the world it is time to shake them out of their stupidity with FACTS. Xtianity was not spread by pious missionaries but by terror, murder and oppression.
Do you understand that, at least, or am I wasting my time? You made an assertion that the populace was blindly following the bishops and priests and it is simply untrue in many instances.
The sad thing for me about the blind rejection of the Trinity is that without appreciating how God is simultaneously one and three, there is no way to begin to understand the process of involution, unity into diversity, or the creation of the universe.
(June 17, 2011 at 2:14 am)Minimalist Wrote: If it's bullshit, it is not worth knowing or wasting time considering.
Your task, and others of your ilk, is to show that it is real instead of merely asserting that you believe it.
Belief may count for something where you come from but around here it isn't worth shit.
It isn't a matter of belief but of being open minded. For example understanding the basics of the Trinity is what allows a person to comprehend the skeleton of the triune universe. We are used to examining the universe from a dualistic perspective normal for science. We are used to accepting the Law of the Excluded Middle (duality) as all there is to it. Yet now some are becoming aware of the Law of the Included Middle" (three forces) which opens a person to a new perspective.
Quote:It isn't a matter of belief but of being open minded.
I cannot disagree more. Accepting lunacy because it is written in an old book....and actually, it isn't written in the old book it was hashed out centuries later...and then calling yourself "open-minded" is little more than chutzpah.
Be careful you are not so open minded that your brain falls out.
