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RE: What is your Favorite Religious Contradiction?
June 3, 2011 at 12:48 pm
(June 3, 2011 at 1:25 am)tackattack Wrote: Yes I believe some of you are going to go to hell in the final judgement, not because you're not nice, but because you reject God. Some of you are truly open to the possibility, just waiting for a sign. Most aren't and no amount of personal revelation will get past your personal bias.
That's an awfully broad brush you're painting us all with, tack. Do you really think that if God appeared before some atheists in a way to prove that he is the one true god that they'd still disbelieve?
The trouble is that most people who see signs of God are looking for them in the first place. But the rest of us would believe if he did actually show one.
Christian apologetics is the art of rolling a dog turd in sugar and selling it as a donut.
RE: What is your Favorite Religious Contradiction?
June 3, 2011 at 4:28 pm (This post was last modified: June 3, 2011 at 9:00 pm by Cinjin.)
(June 3, 2011 at 5:17 am)tackattack Wrote:
No need it's Luke 16. I'll address your real point first then dole out the requested apologetics.
I do believe it is a lake of fire. Whether literal or figurative is immaterial, as if you threw something in a lake of fire, it would eventually be destroyed. That was my point.
Do you want me to treat it lite rally or figuratively, both are invalid. Me personally, I think that the grave (hell in your verse) being cast into a lake of fire on judgement day, would necessitate that hell and the lake of fire aren't even the same thing. Perhaps the grave, hell, hades, tartaros and gehenna are states of discard. Perhaps they're a holding pattern until the second resurrection and final judgement. Perhaps prior to Jesus being known, people are in a place atoning for their crimes or resting peacfully and since we just sleep. I don't know the answer personally but this verse is clearly parable as literally it would make no sense at all. here is a link to a site I pieced together a lesson about this very subject on. We all reached the same conclusion.
I read the attached article. It requires several assumptions and I'm sure even in christian circles, many would interpolate the scriptures how they see fit to discount this take on the eternal fires of hell. This is an inconsequential point I'm making though because I'd rather not spend time debating the validity of a controversial doctrine for a religion that I don't even believe in. My only point regarding the OP was that many christians (apparently not you) believe that according to their bible, god created hell for Satan, his minions, and non-believers, and that Hell is a place of eternal suffering. Although you clearly do not agree with my conclusion regarding the eternality of burning in hell - I think you would have to agree that I'm right about the beliefs of many christians correct?
In my youth I attended several spiritual revivals in various churches. Often 2 to 4 evenings in length. The traveling evangelist (who always seemed to be white-haired and very charismatic) used the "Hell-Fire" sermon to get his "message of love" out to the non-believers and "wayward" christians. By the time he was through, everyone in the room was terrified and coming up to the front of the chapel/sanctuary. I specifically remember one preacher using this analogy to describe eternity in Hell: If one seagull picked up one grain of sand on the west coast of California, flew to the east coast of Florida and deposited that grain on the beach ... and than proceeded to do that for EVERY grain of sand that was on the entire west coast ... that would be like ONE SECOND in hell by the time the bird was finished.
You see Tack, no matter what evidence you offer or how valid your argument even may be - your own people have set the standard, the bible is too subject to interpretation, and the majority of christians believe eternal life goes both ways.
Thus my answer to the OP stands: God is Love ... God is going to burn you forever.
(on a side note: This is the first time I've seen a christian on this forum write these words, "I don't know the answer personally ..." I truly appreciate this sentiment and have used it often. In fact, that alone is often all the rest of us are looking for. Kudos)
RE: What is your Favorite Religious Contradiction?
June 3, 2011 at 4:35 pm (This post was last modified: June 3, 2011 at 4:37 pm by Violet.)
(June 3, 2011 at 1:25 am)tackattack Wrote: That would also explain while the majority are atheists and not theists then too hunh CC?
Since asked,
Yes I believe some of you are going to go to hell in the final judgement, not because you're not nice, but because you reject God. Some of you are truly open to the possibility, just waiting for a sign. Most aren't and no amount of personal revelation will get past your personal bias. It still doens't make your statement correct though.
My only problem with your statement was the burning forever part. Standard Doctrine I learned and teach is that a soul is destroyed in hell, therefore non existent, and not eternally burning.
Am I one of those mean old God rejecters?
Hell doesn't sound particularly unpleasant if it is not eternal
Quote:No need it's Luke 16. I'll address your real point first then dole out the requested apologetics.
I do believe it is a lake of fire. Whether literal or figurative is immaterial, as if you threw something in a lake of fire, it would eventually be destroyed. That was my point.
The unstoppable force meets the immovable object
Quote:Do you want me to treat it literally or figuratively, both are invalid. Me personally, I think that the grave (hell in your verse) being cast into a lake of fire on judgement day, would necessitate that hell and the lake of fire aren't even the same thing. Perhaps the grave, hell, hades, tartaros and gehenna are states of discard. Perhaps they're a holding pattern until the second ressurection and final judgement. Perhaps prior to Jesus being known, people are in a place atoning for their crimes or resting peacfully and since we just sleep. I don't know the answer personally but this verse is clearly parable as literally it would make no sense at all. here is a link to a site I peieced together a lesson about this very subject on. We all reached the same conclusion.
My conclusion is that the lawgiver can always be toppled, that prisons can always be escaped, and that sleep is always cut short where consciousness remains.
And I shoot corpses. Or stab them. Or crush them. Or otherwise ensure that they are quite, quite dead. Related? Nope
(June 3, 2011 at 12:48 pm)Doubting Thomas Wrote: But the rest of us would believe if he did actually show one.
Don't lie. The unknown implies not God, the powerful implies not God, the mystical implies not God, that which claims to God be implies not the truth of the statement no matter what the unknown and powerful mysticism by which it demonstrates its might.
RE: What is your Favorite Religious Contradiction?
June 3, 2011 at 4:51 pm
Quote:My only problem with your statement was the burning forever part. Standard Doctrine I learned and teach is that a soul is destroyed in hell, therefore non existent, and not eternally burning.
So...you're saying that I'll simply...cease to exist. Heck, I've already concluded that decades ago.
I don't mind going into oblivion.
If going to hell simply means not existing anymore...then I'm completely ok with that. I haven't existed for billions of years, never bothered me though. So I don't think going back into non-existence will bother me.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan
Mankind's intelligence walks hand in hand with it's stupidity.
Being an atheist says nothing about your overall intelligence, it just means you don't believe in god. Atheists can be as bright as any scientist and as stupid as any creationist.
You never really know just how stupid someone is, until you've argued with them.
RE: What is your Favorite Religious Contradiction?
June 4, 2011 at 4:18 am
(June 3, 2011 at 12:48 pm)Doubting Thomas Wrote:
(June 3, 2011 at 1:25 am)tackattack Wrote: Yes I believe some of you are going to go to hell in the final judgement, not because you're not nice, but because you reject God. Some of you are truly open to the possibility, just waiting for a sign. Most aren't and no amount of personal revelation will get past your personal bias.
That's an awfully broad brush you're painting us all with, tack. Do you really think that if God appeared before some atheists in a way to prove that he is the one true god that they'd still disbelieve?
The trouble is that most people who see signs of God are looking for them in the first place. But the rest of us would believe if he did actually show one.
Yes it is a broad brush. I do think that a majority of atheists would still disbelieve in god even if he appeared before them. Many members on here openly admit to first assuming they are delusional rather than to trust their senses. You yourself in your above statement even qualify his appearance with proof. I'm assuming you mean objective, quantifiable and tangible proof there. One question, If you're not looking for something and when you stumble accross viewing it you assume you're delusional, would you expect to ever find it?
Perfect example. Person X has fallen for a mirage before, and knows of no oasis in the area. Walking the desert he sees what appears to be an oasis. He wasn't looking for one, doesn't feel the need for an oasis, therefore determines that it's a mirage. This happens time and time again with the same sound reasoning. How many times did he actually pass up the real oasis?
(June 3, 2011 at 4:28 pm)Cinjin Cain Wrote:
(June 3, 2011 at 5:17 am)tackattack Wrote: No need it's Luke 16. I'll address your real point first then dole out the requested apologetics.
I do believe it is a lake of fire. Whether literal or figurative is immaterial, as if you threw something in a lake of fire, it would eventually be destroyed. That was my point.
Do you want me to treat it lite rally or figuratively, both are invalid. Me personally, I think that the grave (hell in your verse) being cast into a lake of fire on judgement day, would necessitate that hell and the lake of fire aren't even the same thing. Perhaps the grave, hell, hades, tartaros and gehenna are states of discard. Perhaps they're a holding pattern until the second resurrection and final judgement. Perhaps prior to Jesus being known, people are in a place atoning for their crimes or resting peacfully and since we just sleep. I don't know the answer personally but this verse is clearly parable as literally it would make no sense at all. here is a link to a site I pieced together a lesson about this very subject on. We all reached the same conclusion.
I read the attached article. It requires several assumptions and I'm sure even in christian circles, many would interpolate the scriptures how they see fit to discount this take on the eternal fires of hell. This is an inconsequential point I'm making though because I'd rather not spend time debating the validity of a controversial doctrine for a religion that I don't even believe in. My only point regarding the OP was that many christians (apparently not you) believe that according to their bible, god created hell for Satan, his minions, and non-believers, and that Hell is a place of eternal suffering. Although you clearly do not agree with my conclusion regarding the eternality of burning in hell - I think you would have to agree that I'm right about the beliefs of many christians correct?
In my youth I attended several spiritual revivals in various churches. Often 2 to 4 evenings in length. The traveling evangelist (who always seemed to be white-haired and very charismatic) used the "Hell-Fire" sermon to get his "message of love" out to the non-believers and "wayward" christians. By the time he was through, everyone in the room was terrified and coming up to the front of the chapel/sanctuary. I specifically remember one preacher using this analogy to describe eternity in Hell: If one seagull picked up one grain of sand on the west coast of California, flew to the east coast of Florida and deposited that grain on the beach ... and than proceeded to do that for EVERY grain of sand that was on the entire west coast ... that would be like ONE SECOND in hell by the time the bird was finished.
You see Tack, no matter what evidence you offer or how valid your argument even may be - your own people have set the standard, the bible is too subject to interpretation, and the majority of christians believe eternal life goes both ways.
Thus my answer to the OP stands: God is Love ... God is going to burn you forever.
(on a side note: This is the first time I've seen a christian on this forum write these words, "I don't know the answer personally ..." I truly appreciate this sentiment and have used it often. In fact, that alone is often all the rest of us are looking for. Kudos)
I still don’t think you supported your argument that it’s a majority. In fact I think your side is less supported. You admitted that your experience was from your childhood, whereas I’m an active participating member of Christianity. In my locale (local community, multiple Churches I teach at, and internet communities) I see it as a very small minority view, especially in today’s climate, eternal torture is inconsistent with God’s nature as most Christians feel when I’ve asked. Most don’t think about or question what they believe or read the Bible, which is one thing we can agree on I think.
(June 3, 2011 at 4:35 pm)Aerzia Saerules Arktuos Wrote:
(June 3, 2011 at 1:25 am)tackattack Wrote: That would also explain while the majority are atheists and not theists then too hunh CC?
Since asked,
Yes I believe some of you are going to go to hell in the final judgement, not because you're not nice, but because you reject God. Some of you are truly open to the possibility, just waiting for a sign. Most aren't and no amount of personal revelation will get past your personal bias. It still doens't make your statement correct though.
My only problem with your statement was the burning forever part. Standard Doctrine I learned and teach is that a soul is destroyed in hell, therefore non existent, and not eternally burning.
Am I one of those mean old God rejecters?
Hell doesn't sound particularly unpleasant if it is not eternal
Quote:No need it's Luke 16. I'll address your real point first then dole out the requested apologetics.
I do believe it is a lake of fire. Whether literal or figurative is immaterial, as if you threw something in a lake of fire, it would eventually be destroyed. That was my point.
The unstoppable force meets the immovable object
Quote:Do you want me to treat it literally or figuratively, both are invalid. Me personally, I think that the grave (hell in your verse) being cast into a lake of fire on judgement day, would necessitate that hell and the lake of fire aren't even the same thing. Perhaps the grave, hell, hades, tartaros and gehenna are states of discard. Perhaps they're a holding pattern until the second ressurection and final judgement. Perhaps prior to Jesus being known, people are in a place atoning for their crimes or resting peacfully and since we just sleep. I don't know the answer personally but this verse is clearly parable as literally it would make no sense at all. here is a link to a site I peieced together a lesson about this very subject on. We all reached the same conclusion.
My conclusion is that the lawgiver can always be toppled, that prisons can always be escaped, and that sleep is always cut short where consciousness remains.
And I shoot corpses. Or stab them. Or crush them. Or otherwise ensure that they are quite, quite dead. Related? Nope
(June 3, 2011 at 12:48 pm)Doubting Thomas Wrote: But the rest of us would believe if he did actually show one.
Don't lie. The unknown implies not God, the powerful implies not God, the mystical implies not God, that which claims to God be implies not the truth of the statement no matter what the unknown and powerful mysticism by which it demonstrates its might.
“Am I one of those mean old God rejecters? “ That’s between you and God, but I would not describe any version of hell (temporary or permanent) as ”not particularly unpleasant”
“My conclusion is that the lawgiver can always be toppled, that prisons can always be escaped, and that sleep is always cut short where consciousness remains. “
That’s because you’re an anarchist. In relation to this topic, that would be determined what you define as consciousness
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
RE: What is your Favorite Religious Contradiction?
June 4, 2011 at 4:23 am (This post was last modified: June 4, 2011 at 4:28 am by Violet.)
Tacky Wrote:That’s between you and God, but I would not describe any version of hell (temporary or permanent) as ”not particularly unpleasant”
I would I've a pretty good imagination... and I know from experience that what hurts isn't that something is there: but that it either can't be removed without causing more damage or takes a great deal of work to remove it. Stab wound? Not a problem for a few seconds. Easily removed? No. Earthquake toppling house over. Not a problem for a while. Easily fixed? No.
So a temporary hell wouldn't be much of a transition from this (and yes, I could amuse myself even in hell). It's experiencing the permanent that would be particularly unpleasant. Oblivion, on the other hand, is peace.
Quote:That’s because you’re an anarchist. In relation to this topic, that would be determined what you define as consciousness
And also because Larry is dead, and all realms save this overrun...
As to the last, I was making fun of my own trouble sleeping and staying asleep
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