On Catholicism!

[Eilonnwy]

Catholics, like the rest of the catholic Christian church, follow the same belief system. As I've outlined above, members of the Catholic church that don't follow Christ, and that IS possible, are not Christians. I simply point out to you the simple facts. I've met very few atheists that understand what Christianity is really about. If you wish to continue in your ignorance then that's up to you. I merely seek to put right your misconceptions. It isn't an argument for me, it's a simple point of fact.

Your distinction is irrelevant, because if they don't follow Christ they're not Catholics either. And I can tell you as someone who was raised Catholic and lives in a predominately Catholic city (Boston) that every Catholic I have encountered follows Christ and what they are taught in school and church is all about Jesus.

They fact of the matter is that Christians can't agree on what Christianity is about except for 1 fact and that's to follow Jesus. The fact of the matter is Atheists tend to know more about Christians then the average Christian knows about their own religion. (Note the word of average) Just because Atheists don't come to same conclusions as you doesn't mean we don't know anything about Christianity.

Whether you agree with Catholicism is one thing. The fact is that Catholicism is under the umbrella of Christianity along with Baptist, Evangelical, etc...in which each sect tells the other they're not Christian. If a single person claims Catholicism, but doesn't not believe in Christ, that's irrelevant because what Catholicism is based on, what it teaches, what it worships is Christ, regardless of whether you think those teachings are incorrect or not. And your inability to see that only speaks to your ignorance. End of story.

And that's a simple point of fact.

[leo-rcc]

RabidApe just made a (poor quality) video which I think is appropriate for this thread:

[youtube]7DOw7-TJm5g[/youtube]

[fr0d0]

Catholics, like the rest of the catholic Christian church, follow the same belief system. As I've outlined above, members of the Catholic church that don't follow Christ, and that IS possible, are not Christians. I simply point out to you the simple facts. I've met very few atheists that understand what Christianity is really about. If you wish to continue in your ignorance then that's up to you. I merely seek to put right your misconceptions. It isn't an argument for me, it's a simple point of fact.

What you consider "misconceptions" come across to everyone else as arrogance ... ignoring the "fuck's" [GRIN] the poll above demonstrates that everyone else (I assume the one dissenting vote is you) believes that Catholics are just Christians like every other Christian. In fact here's one fpr you ... the Westboro Baptists are Christians too (it may even be possible to make a case for the Ku Klux Klan being Christian too ).

No I didn't vote in the idiotic poll

So atheists think that Catholics are Christians. In my experience 99% of all atheists haven't the slightest idea what Christianity actually is! Yeah... way to go to get an informed opinion. Colour me psychedelic.

Most of the ignorant statements published are from non Christians complaining on behalf of Christianity because they think someone or some thing is saying something against it - without having the first clue themselves what they're actually talking about. This would include you.

Another numpty statement. The WBC ALSO act in a non Christ like way. Of course in your universe they're being Christian because to you, being a Christian is no more than saying you are. Actually following Christ could have nothing to do with it could it. 2000 years of wisdom sure is wasted on you isn't it. You, having no clue of course we should respect as an authority on this subject you know fuck all about, because that's what you believe isn't it? I know jack about science. Perhaps Dawkins is wrong... science need people who know fuck all about it telling scientists what they're thinking. I can absolutely see the logic in that... yeah - Kyu logic ...this is where the world has gone wrong . we should all have been practicing Kyu logic all along.

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Your distinction is irrelevant, because if they don't follow Christ they're not Catholics either. And I can tell you as someone who was raised Catholic and lives in a predominately Catholic city (Boston) that every Catholic I have encountered follows Christ and what they are taught in school and church is all about Jesus.

You don't answer any of my points. I've already said why some that consider themselves Catholics are not also Christians. If you disagree with this then you are ignorant of Christianity.

They fact of the matter is that Christians can't agree on what Christianity is about except for 1 fact and that's to follow Jesus. The fact of the matter is Atheists tend to know more about Christians then the average Christian knows about their own religion. (Note the word of average) Just because Atheists don't come to same conclusions as you doesn't mean we don't know anything about Christianity.

Fact is you're mistaken. ALL Christians, including Catholics, accept a particular Nicene Creed. All Christians are united by this. 100%

In my experience. 99% of atheists have the wrong idea about Christianity. Currently I count you as one of the 99%.

Whether you agree with Catholicism is one thing. The fact is that Catholicism is under the umbrella of Christianity along with Baptist, Evangelical, etc...in which each sect tells the other they're not Christian. If a single person claims Catholicism, but doesn't not believe in Christ, that's irrelevant because what Catholicism is based on, what it teaches, what it worships is Christ, regardless of whether you think those teachings are incorrect or not. And your inability to see that only speaks to your ignorance. End of story.

Again you display you're ignorance. Are you not reading what I'm writing?? You obviously think that going against Christ's teachings is being a Christian. How can I argue with such sound logic?

[Giff]

Fr0d0 if an atheist can't have opinion about christianity, even though many of us including me have studied much about religion and/or have been religious. Then you shouldn't be allowed to have a opinion about atheism or science, if we should use your logic.

[fr0d0]

The True Scotsman fallacy is illogical. Christianity is an aim and not a destination. No one can ever be completely Christ like. Maybe you could achieve Christlikeness for a tiny moment. Fact is, every moment you have to choose what to do. No matter what you label yourself, atheist, Christian, pastafarian or worshiper of the soup dragon, you cannot naturally be perfect. A Scotsman is a Scotsman by birth. What a Scotsman does falls within the parameters of being human.

There is no line to step over, no ritual that makes you perfect. You're not a sinful human one minute and a Christian the other. you are always sinful by nature. If you want to use Biblical logic, only Christ is perfect. There is no magical cure.

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Fr0d0 if an atheist can't have opinion about christianity, even though many of us including me have studied much about religion and/or have been religious. Then you shouldn't be allowed to have a opinion about atheism or science, if we should use your logic.

What is your religious experience Giff?

I didn't say you couldn't have an opinion. That would be ridiculous. Richard Dawkins has fought very hard to keep people ignorant about science from having any authority over the opinion of Scientists on Science.

I made clear statements as to why, factually, some Catholic Doctrine is anti Christ. Do you not agree with those statements? I see no one is addressing them or bringing any other evidence to the table.

[Giff]

What is your religious experience Giff?

I didn't say you couldn't have an opinion. That would be ridiculous. Richard Dawkins has fought very hard to keep people ignorant about science from having any authority over the opinion of Scientists on Science.

I made clear statements as to why, factually, some Catholic Doctrine is anti Christ. Do you not agree with those statements? I see no one is addressing them or bringing any other evidence to the table.

You were saying that those those atheist who had an opinion about what christianity where ignorant and that they didn't have a clue what they were talking about.

Those who have been catholic on this site have self said that they see themselves as christians. Isn't that what's more importent what they see themselves as?

I was in a christian kindergarten and therefore learned alot about christianity. Also have sicen I become an atheist looked at religion and acctually know more about christianity and religion then I knew when I was a christian.

[Eilonnwy]

You don't answer any of my points. I've already said why some that consider themselves Catholics are not also Christians. If you disagree with this then you are ignorant of Christianity.

Because disgreeing with you is your criteria for ignorance

Fact is you're mistaken. ALL Christians, including Catholics, accept a particular Nicene Creed. All Christians are united by this. 100%

In my experience. 99% of atheists have the wrong idea about Christianity. Currently I count you as one of the 99%.

Again you display you're ignorance. Are you not reading what I'm writing?? You obviously think that going against Christ's teachings is being a Christian. How can I argue with such sound logic?

How about you crack open a dictionary.
Nevermind, I did it for you:

Christian –adjective 1. of, pertaining to, or derived from Jesus Christ or His teachings: a Christian faith.

Doesn't have to include the Nicene creed. It is a dogma that many faiths include but NOT required to be a Christian. All that's required is belief in Jesus.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/christian

Did you actually read what I wrote? I never said going against Christ's teachings is being Christian. The point I was making is that people can derive whatever meaning they want from Christ's teachings and that's why different sects call other sects non-Christian. The distinction that certain people may claim Catholicism and not truly be Christian is irrelevant to having Catholicism, as a religion, be considered Christian.

I don't care about your little quibbles about what people believe in the Catholic faith that in your opinion makes them non Christian. Fact: Christian's believe in Christ, follow his teachings. Fact: Catholics believe in Christ and follow their interpretations of Christ's teachings. They have fulfilled their requirement to be Christian, it doesn't matter what interpretation they take because there a MANY.

The point that I was making was whether someone claims to be a Catholic but follow it's teachings is irrelevant. There will always be someone who says "I'm catholic, I'm christian" but doesn't really believe or doesn't follow the teachings as described by their demonitations

You trott out a list of things that Catholics believe in and say that makes them not Christian. Sorry, intracacies of what Catholics and what you accept is not the point. The point is that their beliefs are based on Jesus, just as well as yours. I would in fact agree with you on certain points that the Catholics believe that really seems to contradict what's in the Bible. Doesn't matter. The Catholic that believes it would just as vehemently say you're wrong and possibly assert your not Christian.

Hey, you know Jesus said: Matthew 19:21 - Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

Have you sold all your possessions. I think I can safely assume you're not poor on the street, since that's what this passage requires, and soo Oops, you haven't followed Jesus here. Guess you're not a Christian.

Now I'm sure you don't agree with my "interpretation" of this passage in one way or another. Doesn't matter, the point is that there are differences of opinion of what Jesus's teachings and what it is to be Christian, this is only a simple example.

Simple fact: Catholics are Christian. I don't care what you think Catholics believe that makes it so they are incorrectly following Jesus therefore not Christian. It's irrelevant, because there is only 1 requirement to be a Christian which has been explained and repeated many times.

[fr0d0]

You were saying that those those atheist who had an opinion about what christianity where ignorant and that they didn't have a clue what they were talking about.

Most atheist's I've come into contact with understand little about what Christianity actually is in reality.

Those who have been catholic on this site have self said that they see themselves as christians. Isn't that what's more importent what they see themselves as?

My assertion is that Catholicism isn't necessarily Christianity. You need to consult the wider Christian church for a definition. Granted only the individual can know if their a Christian or not, given they follow Christian requirements. If you pray to a saint, for example, you're doing the opposite of what Christ said directly, so are being, in that moment, anti Christ.

I was in a christian kindergarten and therefore learned alot about christianity. Also have sicen I become an atheist looked at religion and acctually know more about christianity and religion then I knew when I was a christian.

You were in a Christian school before 6 years of age? And you never actually made a decision to follow Christ? IMO this makes you never a Christian, never understanding what it means to actually be a Christian and a complete outsider. Yes you may be more informed than someone without that experience, but this makes you completely uninformed in my understanding.

But you said you were a Christian. How so?

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[quote='fr0d0' pid='14001' dateline='1239730518']

You don't answer any of my points. I've already said why some that consider themselves Catholics are not also Christians. If you disagree with this then you are ignorant of Christianity.

Because disgreeing with you is your criteria for ignorance[/quote]
Not at all. Did I not say the above then? And does this not contradict what you said?

How about you crack open a dictionary.
Nevermind, I did it for you:

Christian –adjective 1. of, pertaining to, or derived from Jesus Christ or His teachings: a Christian faith.

No secular dictionary defines Christianity accurately. Not that I've found. Secular dictionaries deal with secular understanding. It isn't possible to explain Christianity from a Christian perspective to a non Christian. It won't make sense.


[quote='Eilonnwy' pid='14009' dateline='1239735202']Doesn't have to include the Nicene creed. It is a dogma that many faiths include but NOT required to be a Christian. All that's required is belief in Jesus.

All Christians have the Nicene Creed in common. Non Christians can believe in Jesus, Non Christians can follow Christ's teachings.

Did you actually read what I wrote? I never said going against Christ's teachings is being Christian. The point I was making is that people can derive whatever meaning they want from Christ's teachings and that's why different sects call other sects non-Christian. The distinction that certain people may claim Catholicism and not truly be Christian is irrelevant to having Catholicism, as a religion, be considered Christian.

No Christian Church can do whatever they like. The wider Christian Church only accepts Christians on strict criteria. People are prone to do stuff wrong sometimes. Again it's the aim thing.. people fall short, that doesn't make the goal less valid.

I'll say it again, the Catholic church is considered a Christian church by the wider Christian Church.

I don't care about your little quibbles about what people believe in the Catholic faith that in your opinion makes them non Christian. Fact: Christian's believe in Christ, follow his teachings. Fact: Catholics believe in Christ and follow their interpretations of Christ's teachings. They have fulfilled their requirement to be Christian, it doesn't matter what interpretation they take because there a MANY.

Incorrect. It does matter what all Christians believe to be accepted by the wider Christian Church. Like I've said, it's a strict definition.

The point that I was making was whether someone claims to be a Catholic but follow it's teachings is irrelevant. There will always be someone who says "I'm catholic, I'm christian" but doesn't really believe or doesn't follow the teachings as described by their demonitations

People can lie, and to themselves. Absolutely.

You trott out a list of things that Catholics believe in and say that makes them not Christian. Sorry, intracacies of what Catholics and what you accept is not the point. The point is that their beliefs are based on Jesus, just as well as yours. I would in fact agree with you on certain points that the Catholics believe that really seems to contradict what's in the Bible. Doesn't matter. The Catholic that believes it would just as vehemently say you're wrong and possibly assert your not Christian.

I don't say these things make them non Christian. I say these things ARE anti Christian. Simple fact is if you do something anti Christian then that's what you're doing. Some things are up for debate, some are not.

Hey, you know Jesus said: Matthew 19:21 - Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

Have you sold all your possessions. I think I can safely assume you're not poor on the street, since that's what this passage requires, and soo Oops, you haven't followed Jesus here. Guess you're not a Christian.

Good point If I believed the opposite to be true than I'd be going against what Jesus was saying there. I don't. I agree.

Now I'm sure you don't agree with my "interpretation" of this passage in one way or another. Doesn't matter, the point is that there are differences of opinion of what Jesus's teachings and what it is to be Christian, this is only a simple example.

I don't see that there's any conflict. I agree that we in the wealthy west are spiritually baron and the dependency on wealth is spiritually disabling. The lesson is true to me.

Simple fact: Catholics are Christian. I don't care what you think Catholics believe that makes it so they are incorrectly following Jesus therefore not Christian. It's irrelevant, because there is only 1 requirement to be a Christian which has been explained and repeated many times.

The problem really is that Kyu paints with the Catholic brush assuming that he's addressing Christians and not his own misconceptions. To Kyu his unique understanding of some screwed up ideas on Catholicism from his own experience actually apply to the wider Christian Church when Christians tell him straight where he's in error. Kyu doesn't accept this and seeks to confirm his innacurracies with a meaningless poll.

There is no one requirement to being a Christian as I've pointed out above. Not that I don't think you're getting it. I think you are.

[Kyuuketsuki]

No I didn't vote in the idiotic poll

Idiotic in your opinion only it seems.

So atheists think that Catholics are Christians. In my experience 99% of all atheists haven't the slightest idea what Christianity actually is! Yeah... way to go to get an informed opinion. Colour me psychedelic.

And oh so glibly you skip over the key fact which is, that MOST OF US ATHEIST WERE ONCE RELIGIOUS TOO so, even adopting your logic, I actually think we DO have some significant right to say what a Christian is or is not so you know where you can shove yer pathetic rationale.

Another numpty statement. The WBC ALSO act in a non Christ like way. Of course in your universe they're being Christian because to you, being a Christian is no more than saying you are. Actually following Christ could have nothing to do with it could it. 2000 years of wisdom sure is wasted on you isn't it. You, having no clue of course we should respect as an authority on this subject you know fuck all about, because that's what you believe isn't it? I know jack about science. Perhaps Dawkins is wrong... science need people who know fuck all about it telling scientists what they're thinking. I can absolutely see the logic in that... yeah - Kyu logic ...this is where the world has gone wrong . we should all have been practicing Kyu logic all along.

And the KEY POINT (SMACK - SMACK - SMACK) is that THEY SAY THE SAME FUCKING THING ABOUT YOU ... don't you fucking get it yet?

Kyu

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

The True Scotsman fallacy is illogical

Really? And exactly would you know that? From what I've seen of your arguments,you woulnd't recognise a logicl argument if it bit you on the dick.

"The no true Scotsman fallacy " is accepted as a common logical fallacy by most thinking people. May one enquire where you studied logic ? Me? Adelaide University. That you can't understand the argument forces me to abandon my earlier defence of your intelligence.

I was going to provide a link explaining the more common logical fallacies,including your absolute favourite, "argument from ignorance" . Waste of time ,you've demonstrated you lack the intellectual capacity to grasp the explanations.


OF COURSE I may be totally wrong in my assessment.You may in fact be of good average intelligence, merely stubborn and willfully ignorant,which is far worse than simple stupidity imo. In that case you're just a fool. Regardless, I'm not playing with you any more. There are rules here. If I continue trying to have a rational discussion with you I will almost certainly say something unkind and get myself banned.

DISCLAIMER: None of the above is intentionally insulting, although I concede some of it might be interpreted as a little patronising. I'm simply expressing an honest opinion based on observation.


@fr0d0: Congratulations ,you're the first person here I've found sufficiently irritating to bung on my ignore list. That means I'm unable to see anything you post..