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(August 3, 2015 at 3:51 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: The question here isn't about the difference between Christianity at it's beginning and Christianity today, but rather a question about the Old and New Testament's reference, or lack there of, to hell. The New Testament scriptures [original manuscripts] have not changed from then to now. Hell has always been a part of the revelation of the New Testament.
Another reason why it's pure fabrication. What Christians would have us believe is that God sat around for millenia not uttering a single word about original sin or the consequential eternal damnation. Then some dude shows up pulling the perceived danger out of his ass while prescribing a cure. A classic case of charlatanism.
(August 2, 2015 at 2:20 pm)Rhondazvous Wrote: The Church teaches that all mankind was sentenced to hell to pay for Adam’s sin. This doctrine is both biblically and historically insupportable.
Biblical Viewpoint
It would be interesting to know why this should be when Adam was not sentenced to hell to pay for his own sin. In Genesis 3:17-19 we are told all the terrible things that will happen to Adam. Have you ever read this for yourself? If so, did you notice Adam’s punishment is confined to his physical existence?
That and his death/His inability to commune with God as He once had.
Quote: In fact, Yahweh says “until you return to dust.” So we are talking here about physical death. The soul does not return to dust. The body does and according to the Bible, that is the end of Adam’s punishment. The word “until” means there’s a time limit. So from where did the Church come in and decide our punishment is to be eternal?
And that's why their was a reformation movement separating the church from Dark age Catholosism. As you pointed out Original sin is a unsupported doctrine. Sin it self however and it wages is not. Christ tells us each man is responsible for our own sin, and because we have knowledge of Good and Evil per Adam we will be held accountable to it.
Quote:Is it not odd that in the 4,000 years between Adam and Paul, not one biblical writer says a word about anybody going to hell to pay for Adam’s sin?
Not if you can identify the doctrine of 'original sin' as being unsupported by the bible.
You’d think that for something so cataclysmic that it affects the entire human race at least one biblical writer would find it worth mentioning. But none did. Hell was not a place where anybody went in the Old Testament. You might mention Psalm 16:10
Quote:For thou shall not leave my soul in hades/sheol. Not let your holy one see corruption.
There is no rationale for translating the Hebrew word “Lish·'O·Vl” as “Hell.” Lish·'O·Vl is the underworld or place of the dead. In classical Judaism, this was the permanent abode of the dead. Elijah and one other prophet notwithstanding, resurrection was not something experienced by the general populace.
That because Sheol/Death is not being translated to Hell. The Spiritual Death Experience is being described, in common/physical relaitable terms.
Quote:Yes, you might say, but what about the rich man and Lazarus? We see Lazarus going to Abraham’s Bosom and the rich man went to hell. I challenge any Christian to show me one instance of Abraham’s Bosom in the Old Testament. Again, the Bible is silent about a concept large enough to deserve at least one mention. Just as Abraham’s Bosom is a construct of apocalyptic Judaism, so is the idea of humans going to hell when they die.
It's a parable, the parable describes the finality/no second chances in Hell not Abraham or the level thirst one may have.
Quote:The Psalms were written during the Babylonian captivity. So we see a pagan influence on Jewish theology even before apocalyptic Judaism took hold in the second century B.C.E.
Ah, no. A good portion of it was written under David's rule
Quote:At this point you might turn to the book of Revelation where we find people being cast into the lake of fire because their names were not written in the book of Life.
Or you can turn to what Christ acutally said about what happens to us in said lake first and then turn to revelation to show that it will happen.
Quote: You are not supposed to ask yourself why their names were not written there.
Sure you are that's what the 4 books of the Gospel is about. Not to mention more specifically the first 3 chapters of Revelation. Jesus is speaking to the 7 churches about who is written in the lamb's book and who is not and WHY!!!
Quote: The Bible does not say and where the Bible is silent, the Church feels free to add its own interpretation.
You started out strong but I see confirmation bias has blinded you.
Quote:They tell us it’s because they were unbelievers. However, since nowhere else in the Bible do we see anyone going to hell for what they did or did not believe, this interpretation lacks credibility.
In the first 3 chapters of revelation BELIEVERS Are going to go to Hell if they do not straighten up, and the rest of Revelation shows that they did not. So where do you think unbelievers/Those who curse the name of God will go?
Quote: The only people the Bible definitely says will have their names taken out of the book of Life are those who take things out of that book and those who add things to that book will have the plaques of that book added to them. So the vast majority of Christian leaders are already in trouble.
Uh, no. Read Chapter 3 Of the six churches only one will not have their names removed from the lambs book.
Quote:Historical Viewpoint
I’ve mentioned apocalyptic Judaism several times. Jesus was an apocalyptic Jew. After the Babylonian destruction and captivity, Jews began to move away from the teachings of the prophets. The prophets taught that suffering was punishment for not keeping God’s covenant. They taught that if the people turned back to God he would heal them and bless them. Yet ever the centuries it was becoming clear that this was not happening.
So.. Your not aware of what happened in the middle east for them right after WWII?
Quote:Apocalyptic Judaism was an alternative to the teachings of the prophets. It taught that God had an enemy and it was this enemy who caused Yahweh’s people to suffer when they tried to follow God. According to the prophets, the “soul that sinneth it shall die.” Yet the people saw over and over that the wicked and sinners lived long lives. They did not see the wicked being punished in this life, so apocalyptic Judaism offered an after-life during which justice and retribution would be exacted. Thus, Satan emerges as the arch enemy of God and Hell becomes the destiny of the wicked.
This is wrong is so many ways. Satan is a tool used by God and submits himself to God, per the example of the book of Job and Revelation. Satan represents side b of the only real choice we have been given. a nessary evil if you will.
Quote:The Church needs hell. Fear is a very strong emotion. It can make people accept what they otherwise would reject. It can make people believe in things that they know are not true. It will take time to free yourself from fears that have lodged in your mind for years and decades. It will be even more difficult if you are surrounded by people who reinforce that fear. As you can see from the above there is no basis for this fear. The last question is, do you think you will find favor with God by believing things you know are not true?
uh, no.
Hell, is simply the alternative to spending an eternity with God. Side A if you want to spend eternity with God and what He has created, follow the plan of salvation/gospel. if no the Hell. that simple. No fear. A or B.
(August 3, 2015 at 7:33 pm)Rhondazvous Wrote: 2 Thess. is about knowledge and obedience.
Agreed, knowledge about what the gospel is [established in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4] and obedience to that gospel.
(August 3, 2015 at 7:33 pm)Rhondazvous Wrote: What does it mean to obey the gospel of Christ? this is open for interpretation so of course you will interpret it in a way that supports your narrative. Because it falls short of saying believing that Jesus is god as the Church teaches it serves only as something you can interpret to support your claims, not as proof of those claims.
Anyone who denies the life, death, burial, and/or resurrection of Christ is not obeying the gospel.
(August 3, 2015 at 7:33 pm)Rhondazvous Wrote: You still have not shown that the idea of hell is anything but an construct of apocalyptic Judaism. Superimposing your interpretation of New Testament scriptures onto Old Testament scriptures where they don't exist is not going to do it.
See below.
(August 4, 2015 at 8:25 am)Cato Wrote:
(August 3, 2015 at 3:51 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: The question here isn't about the difference between Christianity at it's beginning and Christianity today, but rather a question about the Old and New Testament's reference, or lack there of, to hell. The New Testament scriptures [original manuscripts] have not changed from then to now. Hell has always been a part of the revelation of the New Testament.
Another reason why it's pure fabrication. What Christians would have us believe is that God sat around for millenia not uttering a single word about original sin or the consequential eternal damnation. Then some dude shows up pulling the perceived danger out of his ass while prescribing a cure. A classic case of charlatanism.
So you say.
Sheol is the Hebrew word for the place of the dead. It can mean several things based on context: a grave or pit or the abode of the dead below the earth. Sheol is translated “grave” 31 times and is translated as “hell” 31 times in the Old Testament. Following is a sampling of verses that mention hell or describe the afterlife.
◾“For a fire is kindled in My anger, and shall burn to the lowest hell; it shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.” (Deut. 32:22)
◾“The dead tremble, those under the waters and those inhabiting them. Sheol is naked before Him, and Destruction has no covering.” (Job 26:5,6)
◾“The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.” (Psa. 9:17)
◾“Your hand will find all Your enemies; Your right hand will find those who hate You. You shall make them as a fiery oven in the time of Your anger; the LORD shall swallow them up in His wrath, and the fire shall devour them.” (Psa. 21:8,9)
◾“If I ascend into heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there.” (Psa. 139:8)
◾“The way of life winds upward for the wise, that he may turn away from hell below.” (Prov. 15:24)
◾“Hell and Destruction are never full; so the eyes of man are never satisfied.” (Prov. 27:20)
◾“The strong shall be as tinder, and the work of it as a spark; both will burn together, and no one shall quench them.” (Isa. 1:31)
◾“Therefore Sheol has enlarged itself and opened its mouth beyond measure; their glory and their multitude and their pomp, and he who is jubilant, shall descend into it.” (Isa. 5:14)
◾“Hell from beneath is excited about you, to meet you at your coming; it stirs up the dead for you, all the chief ones of the earth; it has raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.” (Isa. 14:9)
◾“You shall conceive chaff, you shall bring forth stubble; your breath, as fire, shall devour you. And the people shall be like the burnings of lime; like thorns cut up they shall be burned in the fire.” (Isa. 33:11,12)
◾“And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, some to shame and everlasting contempt.” (Dan. 12:2)
◾“Though they dig into hell, from there My hand shall take them; though they climb up to heaven, from there I will bring them down.” (Amos 9:2)
While the Sadducees of the New Testament did not believe in the afterlife, the Pharisees believed in both heaven and hell and the resurrection of the dead (see Isa. 26:19).
Your hermeneutic is incorrect. Some things [though hell not being one of them] were not revealed to us until later times (Hebrews 1:1-2/Ephesians 1:9/Romans 16:25/Ephesians 3:6/etc.).
If it could be proven beyond doubt that God exists... and that He is the one spoken of in the Bible... would you repent of your sins and place your faith in Jesus Christ?
August 4, 2015 at 11:50 am (This post was last modified: August 4, 2015 at 11:51 am by Wyrd of Gawd.)
(August 3, 2015 at 3:51 pm)orangebox21 Wrote:
(August 3, 2015 at 3:43 pm)dyresand Wrote: Ancient christianity - Hell doesn't exist
modern christianity - Hell added to the bible later on as a control mechanism.
The question here isn't about the difference between Christianity at it's beginning and Christianity today, but rather a question about the Old and New Testament's reference, or lack there of, to hell. The New Testament scriptures [original manuscripts] have not changed from then to now. Hell has always been a part of the revelation of the New Testament.
Maybe that's because Christianity incorporated Greek and Persian religious beliefs about such things as hell, eternal punishment, angels, demons, spirits, resurrection.
BTW, Islam incorporated the Christian beliefs about such things in their fairy tale.
Christianity is heavily influenced by the culture around it. From what I've heard, Jesus started out as just a spirit god that was as high or higher than Yahweh. Major christian holidays incorporate pagan symbolism like trees and rabbits. There's a good handful or so earlier stories about people who came back from the dead. Even if you accepted Jesus' death and resurrection as true, he'd still be among a list of other characters who did the same.
Christianity didn't grow up in a vacuum. It wasn't the first religion, aside from judaism. It wasn't even the first monotheistic religion, aside from judaism. There's nothing special about it, aside from the fact that it lasted longer than many, and it's greatest enemy is a sister religion worshiping the same god. Or different denominations of itsself.
Poe's Law: "Without a winking smiley or other blatant display of humor, it is impossible to create a parody of Fundamentalism that SOMEONE won't mistake for the real thing."
August 4, 2015 at 12:23 pm (This post was last modified: August 4, 2015 at 12:25 pm by orangebox21.)
(August 4, 2015 at 11:50 am)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote:
(August 3, 2015 at 3:51 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: The question here isn't about the difference between Christianity at it's beginning and Christianity today, but rather a question about the Old and New Testament's reference, or lack there of, to hell. The New Testament scriptures [original manuscripts] have not changed from then to now. Hell has always been a part of the revelation of the New Testament.
Maybe that's because Christianity incorporated Greek and Persian religious beliefs about such things as hell, eternal punishment, angels, demons, spirits, resurrection.
Maybe,
Or maybe Greek and Persian religious beliefs were incorporated from Judaism and subsequently Christianity.
Or maybe the shared religious beliefs are true.
Determining the origin or process of the development of a belief doesn't invalidate the belief (genetic fallacy).
(August 4, 2015 at 11:50 am)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote: BTW, Islam incorporated the Christian beliefs about such things in their fairy tale.
Why wouldn't they. Islam claims that the Qur'an is the final revelation of the same God.
If it could be proven beyond doubt that God exists... and that He is the one spoken of in the Bible... would you repent of your sins and place your faith in Jesus Christ?
It is NOT debatable. The Bible is a tribal gang manual. Arguing over mytoloicl bunk, is like arguing over Darth Vader vs Lex Luther. Hilter didn't have the power to torture Jews for eternity, but that didn't make him a good guy.
Attempting to remove hell as a claim still would not change that this character acts out of jealousy and revenge even for the mere crime of not kissing his ass. No different the narcissistic behavior of some parents kicking kids out of the house for picking another religion, not wanting to be part of a pre arranged marriage, being gay, or even not wanting to take up the family business. All revenge having nothing to do with a real crime and merely a childish reaction to being rejected.
(August 4, 2015 at 9:54 am)orangebox21 Wrote: Your hermeneutic is incorrect. Some things [though hell not being one of them] were not revealed to us until later times (Hebrews 1:1-2/Ephesians 1:9/Romans 16:25/Ephesians 3:6/etc.).
I find it amusing that in an effort to refute my point you cannot point to any particular story or theme in the OT. Instead, you frolic in the typical Christian game of OT hopscotch trying to patch together anything that speaks of some vague place after death or some form of fire in an effort to bolster what is clearly a later Christian fabrication.
The heaven and hell concept simply doesn't exist in the OT. You don't have to take my word for it, just go talk to a rabbi. Heaven and hell is simply Christian bullshit and your Jesus is a snake oil salesman.
(August 2, 2015 at 5:31 pm)Jenny A Wrote: It's weird. The descriptions of death in the OT are rather grey shadow half sleeping land. It's only in the NT that hell as a place of torment comes up.
Funny that. . .
It's almost like hell was made up to explain Jesus' death.
You started out strong but I see confirmation bias has blinded you.
