(October 26, 2015 at 12:53 pm)Drich Wrote:

(October 26, 2015 at 11:09 am)miaharun Wrote: Hi Drich ,

what I mean by sin is not one person to another. You can sin with your actions, your mouth and your mind.only took murder as an example. Something out of gods context would still be a sin right. Not just things like murder which he  Even if one thinks "Oh I wish she would not pass her exams" I consider that as a sin, bad deed or misdeed. I mentions in the bible. Example I consider slaughtering animals as a sin.

Even so the examples you list are ALL of 'Immoral acts commited against someone' even your example of wishing ill. That means your defination of sin is morality based. meaning you believe that certain acts have a good value and certain acts have a bad value.

With God all your examples: killing, sex with another woman, wishing someone's failure, even killing animals, these acts, all of them. have no 'moral' value before God on their own. What makes them good or bad is what God has to say about them. Therefore to violate what he says/His law is a sin to and against Him.

That is what the word sin means in english. To literally break devine law. That means Sin is only sin to God. You in your examples are defining the term sin to mean the same as morality. When in fact sin and morality have nothing to do with one another except on occasion when the words sin and immoral can be used to describe the same act.

So again, To forgive sin only means one does not owe a debt to God. It however does not release one from any soceitial/moral obligations.

The etymology doesn't quit bear you out on such a narrow meaning for "sin", at least according to the Online Etymology Dictionary:

sin (n.) Old English synn "moral wrongdoing, injury, mischief, enmity, feud, guilt, crime, offense against God, misdeed," from Proto-Germanic *sun(d)jo- "sin" (cognates: Old Saxon sundia, Old Frisian sende, Middle Dutch sonde, Dutch zonde, German Sünde "sin, transgression, trespass, offense," extended forms), probably ultimately "it is true," i.e. "the sin is real" (compare Gothic sonjis, Old Norse sannr "true"), from PIE *snt-ya-, a collective form from *es-ont- "becoming," present participle of root *es- "to be" (see is).

The semantic development is via notion of "to be truly the one (who is guilty)," as in Old Norse phrase verð sannr at "be found guilty of," and the use of the phrase "it is being" in Hittite confessional formula. The same process probably yielded the Latin word sons (genitive sontis) "guilty, criminal" from present participle of sum, esse "to be, that which is." Some etymologists believe the Germanic word was an early borrowing directly from the Latin genitive. Also see sooth.

Sin-eater is attested from 1680s. To live in sin "cohabit without marriage" is from 1838; used earlier in a more general sense. Ice hockey slang sin bin "penalty box" is attested from 1950.sin (v.) Old English syngian "to commit sin, transgress, err," from synn (see sin (n.)); the form influenced by the noun. Compare Old Saxon sundion, Old Frisian sendigia, Middle Dutch sondighen, Dutch zondigen, Old High German sunteon, German sündigen "to sin." Form altered from Middle English sunigen by influence of the noun.

Leaving that aside, I tend to agree with you about the proper use of the word "sin" since I think that using it as synonymous with "moral wrongdoing", for instance, just muddies the discussion. I prefer to use it only in a religious context as "offense against God" to keep usage clear and on point, as well as to avoid misunderstanding when I say that I don't believe in sin. 

(October 25, 2015 at 9:26 am)miaharun Wrote: Exactly. I just fail to see how human minds work. Is it brainwashing from the start, Is it something to do with DNA or something like a hormone. Some people still believe that things like passing exams is with help from god. And they just believe it just like that. How can you have a relationship with Jesus or god? I have this known person who was a prostitute dealer in his 20s. He married a born again and he converted. The fool now tells that god personally spoke to him and forgave for his past sins. Apparently if you take Jesus into your heart and believe he is the savoir your sins in the past are all forgiven .  If all mankind goes through to fantasy it will be utter chaos. Why cant they use their eyes (an organ which developed from the time of bacteria) and just look around. Why are there rich people and poor people, Why do people suffer from cancer , What right does their god have to do all these injustice. and if heaven or wherever its called is paradise why don't they kill themselves and go there without sinning on this planet.

Hello Miaharun, 

I find this interesting coming from a practicing Buddhist who believes in Karma.  Would it be fair of me to say your response to the question of why there are rich people and poor people suffering is purely because those who are suffering now are being punished from sins in a previous life and those who are prosperous are so because of the good deeds in a past life?  Who sets the measuring stick for the good/bad deeds to dole out the appropriate karmic experience for the next life?  You believe 'people' are responsible for the atrocities in the world, so why do you blame the Christian God for the atrocities.  Did you ever think that Christians also believe it is 'people' that are responsible and not God for the injustices?

Quote:So in your estimation one who commits murder and is sentenced to life in a max security prison can find happiness with the remainder of his life being caged in a tiny room 23 hours a day?

Again forgiveness of sin only clears one's personal debt to God not to what is owed to society.

One who commits murder should realize that their actions were wrong and try to rectify. Serving in prison might help there. No one is going to be happy in prison. Some sort of punishment is viable for a misdeed. Murder is something the divine wrote in a book and your following it. Had the divine wrote something else you would still follow that. Even though murder is in the divine books still there is a chance of forgiveness. I'm sorry but why should God forgive for breaking his own commandment ? Let alone moral thinking.

Eytmology is word history. If you want more than a defination, knowing where a word comes from and how it develops is all apart of a complete understanding, but at the same time the eytmology is not a current defination.


IF you want to do a proper word study we need to look at the koine Greek and not the english, why? because the command and the word we translate to "sin" (and our full understanding of that word) is all based on this word in the greek: ἁμαρτία hamartia
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lex...G266&t=KJV
Which defines out to mean: "that which is done wrong, sin, an offence, a violation of the divine law in thought or in act"

Which happens to coincide with the modern defination.
" an immoral act considered to be a transgression against divine law"
https://search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?p=de...mp=yhs-002

Which show previous usage of the word 'sin' was incorrect.

(October 26, 2015 at 1:18 pm)miaharun Wrote:

Quote:So in your estimation one who commits murder and is sentenced to life in a max security prison can find happiness with the remainder of his life being caged in a tiny room 23 hours a day?

Again forgiveness of sin only clears one's personal debt to God not to what is owed to society.

One who commits murder should realize that their actions were wrong and try to rectify. Serving in prison might help there. No one is going to be happy in prison. Some sort of punishment is viable for a misdeed. Murder is something the divine wrote in a book and your following it. Had the divine wrote something else you would still follow that. Even though murder is in the divine books still there is a chance of forgiveness. I'm sorry but why should God forgive for breaking his own commandment ? Let alone moral thinking.

yes, but do you understand the greater point I was making about the differences between sin and morality?

(October 26, 2015 at 1:18 pm)miaharun Wrote:

Quote:So in your estimation one who commits murder and is sentenced to life in a max security prison can find happiness with the remainder of his life being caged in a tiny room 23 hours a day?

Again forgiveness of sin only clears one's personal debt to God not to what is owed to society.

One who commits murder should realize that their actions were wrong and try to rectify. Serving in prison might help there. No one is going to be happy in prison. Some sort of punishment is viable for a misdeed. Murder is something the divine wrote in a book and your following it. Had the divine wrote something else you would still follow that. Even though murder is in the divine books still there is a chance of forgiveness. I'm sorry but why should God forgive for breaking his own commandment ? Let alone moral thinking.

I think you may be able to answer your own question.  When someone wrongs you or your child disobeys you, do you forgive them?  Why or why not?  Would it depend on the level of atrocity?  Why do we forgive our spouse when they wrong us?

(October 26, 2015 at 1:14 pm)Kingpin Wrote:

(October 25, 2015 at 9:26 am)miaharun Wrote: Exactly. I just fail to see how human minds work. Is it brainwashing from the start, Is it something to do with DNA or something like a hormone. Some people still believe that things like passing exams is with help from god. And they just believe it just like that. How can you have a relationship with Jesus or god? I have this known person who was a prostitute dealer in his 20s. He married a born again and he converted. The fool now tells that god personally spoke to him and forgave for his past sins. Apparently if you take Jesus into your heart and believe he is the savoir your sins in the past are all forgiven .  If all mankind goes through to fantasy it will be utter chaos. Why cant they use their eyes (an organ which developed from the time of bacteria) and just look around. Why are there rich people and poor people, Why do people suffer from cancer , What right does their god have to do all these injustice. and if heaven or wherever its called is paradise why don't they kill themselves and go there without sinning on this planet.

Hello Miaharun, 

I find this interesting coming from a practicing Buddhist who believes in Karma.  Would it be fair of me to say your response to the question of why there are rich people and poor people suffering is purely because those who are suffering now are being punished from sins in a previous life and those who are prosperous are so because of the good deeds in a past life?  Who sets the measuring stick for the good/bad deeds to dole out the appropriate karmic experience for the next life?  You believe 'people' are responsible for the atrocities in the world, so why do you blame the Christian God for the atrocities.  Did you ever think that Christians also believe it is 'people' that are responsible and not God for the injustices?

Hi Kingpin

It is us , people who sets the measuring stick. We dig our own graves. No one is responsible. Your responsible for your actions , you create your own destiny. At least in your present life. I don't blame any God. I don't believe that there is a creator. I blame the people who have no moral thinking. All people have free will. Yet they are at the mercy of a higher power. Asking for benefits , asking for forgiveness for their own selfish actions etc. there are a lot of good things in all religions. But I blame the people who misuse it for their benefit.

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(October 26, 2015 at 1:27 pm)Kingpin Wrote:

(October 26, 2015 at 1:18 pm)miaharun Wrote: One who commits murder should realize that their actions were wrong and try to rectify. Serving in prison might help there. No one is going to be happy in prison. Some sort of punishment is viable for a misdeed. Murder is something the divine wrote in a book and your following it. Had the divine wrote something else you would still follow that. Even though murder is in the divine books still there is a chance of forgiveness. I'm sorry but why should God forgive for breaking his own commandment ? Let alone moral thinking.

I think you may be able to answer your own question.  When someone wrongs you or your child disobeys you, do you forgive them?  Why or why not?  Would it depend on the level of atrocity?  Why do we forgive our spouse when they wrong us?

A child doesn't know what's right or wrong. Even morally. That's why they go to school. That's why parents bring them up. Teaching them , nurturing them. It's only natural to forgive them for their mistakes. I think what a child does is a mistake instead of a misdeed. Spouse ? Would you forgive if your spouse cheated on you ? Lies, bad words, disobey yes. Of course. We are human. Not perfect.

(October 26, 2015 at 1:29 pm)miaharun Wrote:

(October 26, 2015 at 1:14 pm)Kingpin Wrote: Hello Miaharun, 

I find this interesting coming from a practicing Buddhist who believes in Karma.  Would it be fair of me to say your response to the question of why there are rich people and poor people suffering is purely because those who are suffering now are being punished from sins in a previous life and those who are prosperous are so because of the good deeds in a past life?  Who sets the measuring stick for the good/bad deeds to dole out the appropriate karmic experience for the next life?  You believe 'people' are responsible for the atrocities in the world, so why do you blame the Christian God for the atrocities.  Did you ever think that Christians also believe it is 'people' that are responsible and not God for the injustices?

Hi Kingpin

It is us , people who sets the measuring stick. We dig our own graves. No one is responsible. Your responsible for your actions , you create your own destiny. At least in your present life. I don't blame any God. I don't believe that there is a creator. I blame the people who have no moral thinking. All people have free will. Yet they are at the mercy of a higher power. Asking for benefits , asking for forgiveness for their own selfish actions etc. there are a lot of good things in all religions. But I blame the people who misuse it for their benefit.

Ok but I'm trying to get to the point specifically regarding Karma.  Of all the things we do, say and think, when we die, who/what measures all of our actions/talk/thoughts and decides how our next life is going to go?

There's no sense in worrying about people with no moral thinking, Mia.  Karma is going to take their money/rape them/give them aids. After all, that's why people are poor/raped/infected.....they have no moral thinking.

(October 26, 2015 at 1:37 pm)Kingpin Wrote:

(October 26, 2015 at 1:29 pm)miaharun Wrote: Hi Kingpin

It is us , people who sets the measuring stick. We dig our own graves. No one is responsible. Your responsible for your actions , you create your own destiny. At least in your present life. I don't blame any God. I don't believe that there is a creator. I blame the people who have no moral thinking. All people have free will. Yet they are at the mercy of a higher power. Asking for benefits , asking for forgiveness for their own selfish actions etc. there are a lot of good things in all religions. But I blame the people who misuse it for their benefit.

Ok but I'm trying to get to the point specifically regarding Karma.  Of all the things we do, say and think, when we die, who/what measures all of our actions/talk/thoughts and decides how our next life is going to go?

It's magic as all members of this forum would think :-). To me however it's an intangible force which holds the world in a balance.

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(October 26, 2015 at 1:20 pm)Drich Wrote:

(October 26, 2015 at 1:18 pm)miaharun Wrote: One who commits murder should realize that their actions were wrong and try to rectify. Serving in prison might help there. No one is going to be happy in prison. Some sort of punishment is viable for a misdeed. Murder is something the divine wrote in a book and your following it. Had the divine wrote something else you would still follow that. Even though murder is in the divine books still there is a chance of forgiveness. I'm sorry but why should God forgive for breaking his own commandment ? Let alone moral thinking.

yes, but do you understand the greater point I was making about the differences between sin and morality?

Of course. But in what I believe there is no God hence sin and moral sin is kind of the same thing. Your thoughts have been very interesting