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RE: Sin & Forgiveness
October 26, 2015 at 1:56 pm
(This post was last modified: October 26, 2015 at 1:57 pm by Kingpin.)
(October 26, 2015 at 1:40 pm)miaharun Wrote: (October 26, 2015 at 1:37 pm)Kingpin Wrote: Ok but I'm trying to get to the point specifically regarding Karma. Of all the things we do, say and think, when we die, who/what measures all of our actions/talk/thoughts and decides how our next life is going to go?
It's magic as all members of this forum would think :-). To me however it's an intangible force which holds the world in a balance.
Ok, and this intangible force is impersonal I assume. You mentioned earlier that is is people the define good/bad. If this impersonal, intangible force is not a person, how then does it decide your next life will be in poverty and how do you account for moral subjectivity, since as people, we don't all agree on objective morality. In fact it ebbs and flows within generations and varies greatly in cultures. Slavery ok, slavery bad. Beating children ok, scolding child bad.
I'm a middle class, 35 year old white collar caucasian American. What would I have to do in this life to become an impoverished African child born with AIDS in my next life? Are my actions judged by your definition of what is moral, or compared to Mao for example.
We are not made happy by what we acquire but by what we appreciate.
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RE: Sin & Forgiveness
October 26, 2015 at 2:03 pm
(This post was last modified: October 26, 2015 at 2:04 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(October 26, 2015 at 1:56 pm)Kingpin Wrote: Quote:I'm a middle class, 35 year old white collar caucasian American. What would I have to do In some circles that might already be enough. 
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Sin & Forgiveness
October 26, 2015 at 2:17 pm
(October 26, 2015 at 2:03 pm)Rhythm Wrote: In some circles that might already be enough.
Could you imagine the response if I said I worked on Capitol Hill?
I might come back as a strain of amoebic dysentery
We are not made happy by what we acquire but by what we appreciate.
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RE: Sin & Forgiveness
October 26, 2015 at 4:27 pm
(This post was last modified: October 26, 2015 at 4:35 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
-and then there's the rape sentencing to consider......... You know, it might be good to know a little bit about this karma stuff. I don't think I'd mind coming back as a baboon, it would be fun to be a dog. Hell, I'd take being an African over both, even a starving one. However, I don't wan't to push that last old lady out in the street, or swipe one too many lollipops, and end up getting reamed by an otherwise swell guy named Steve on account of it. I guess that;s another thing we'd have to take into consideration, though. I'm going to call it "karmic tolerance". It has to be a variable amongst individual human beings. I wonder, how does karma know when the punishment fails to exceed the karmic tolerance of the punished? Say Pol Pot, for whatever reason, wanted to be an actual pot. If karma brought him back -as- a pot, punishment for being Pol Pot, is it achieving it's stated goal?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Sin & Forgiveness
October 26, 2015 at 4:39 pm
(This post was last modified: October 26, 2015 at 4:40 pm by robvalue.)
How exactly does one learn about karma, if not from someone else just announcing it to be true? And why would you believe them if they present no evidence?
I suppose people can get indoctrinated into believing karma just like they do Jesus and that. Not saying that's the case for our new friend, just a comment.
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Sin & Forgiveness
October 27, 2015 at 4:37 am
(October 26, 2015 at 1:56 pm)Kingpin Wrote: (October 26, 2015 at 1:40 pm)miaharun Wrote: It's magic as all members of this forum would think :-). To me however it's an intangible force which holds the world in a balance.
Ok, and this intangible force is impersonal I assume. You mentioned earlier that is is people the define good/bad. If this impersonal, intangible force is not a person, how then does it decide your next life will be in poverty and how do you account for moral subjectivity, since as people, we don't all agree on objective morality. In fact it ebbs and flows within generations and varies greatly in cultures. Slavery ok, slavery bad. Beating children ok, scolding child bad.
I'm a middle class, 35 year old white collar caucasian American. What would I have to do in this life to become an impoverished African child born with AIDS in my next life? Are my actions judged by your definition of what is moral, or compared to Mao for example.
Yes sir. It is people themselves who define what is going to happen to them. I have seen karma in action in this life itself. people who were nasty to others and climbed up the corporate ladder. Nasty in terms of cutting his peers , taking bribes , hurting others so that their jobs are at stake. That person prospered by doing wrong acts. Today he is back to ground 0. He lost his job. Compliance team did an investigation. Lost his name in the the industry. Might be coincidence but I believe otherwise.
The force is not a person. Why do you want to become an African child with AIDS ?
"No one saves us but ourselves. No one can and no one may. We ourselves must walk the path" - Gautama Buddha
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RE: Sin & Forgiveness
October 27, 2015 at 5:06 am
I wouldn't even call it a coincidence. He did a bunch of illegal stuff and finally got found out. I don't see why there is the need for any greater mystery.
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Sin & Forgiveness
October 27, 2015 at 5:34 am
(This post was last modified: October 27, 2015 at 6:14 am by miaharun.)
(October 26, 2015 at 4:27 pm)Rhythm Wrote: -and then there's the rape sentencing to consider......... You know, it might be good to know a little bit about this karma stuff. I don't think I'd mind coming back as a baboon, it would be fun to be a dog. Hell, I'd take being an African over both, even a starving one. However, I don't wan't to push that last old lady out in the street, or swipe one too many lollipops, and end up getting reamed by an otherwise swell guy named Steve on account of it. I guess that;s another thing we'd have to take into consideration, though. I'm going to call it "karmic tolerance". It has to be a variable amongst individual human beings. I wonder, how does karma know when the punishment fails to exceed the karmic tolerance of the punished? Say Pol Pot, for whatever reason, wanted to be an actual pot. If karma brought him back -as- a pot, punishment for being Pol Pot, is it achieving it's stated goal?
Sir forget this karma for a little. It will automatically happen. That is if one believes in it.
Your a person who doesn't believe in anything. Your a person who believes what you see and feel with your sensors (eyes, ears,nose,tongue,body and mind) . I use these thoughts to live my life as a good person. Regardless or Karma or any magic force.
1. Killing is wrong
2. Stealing is wrong
3. Adultery is wrong
4. Lying is wrong
5. Consuming drinks or drugs is wrong.
These are the very basic and I break two of those once in a while and I have no higher power forgiving me for that. Namely number 4 and 5. These are not rules laid upon Buddhists. They are merely a guidance.
I also practice these four called Brahmavihara. I think these are moral practices.
1. Love and kindness. Be kind, generous and love with no strings attached.
2. Compassion. Feel sorry and have a thought that things will be better for that person or being.
3. Equality. Treat everyone equally. All people including me has faults. Respect and treat them as you would like to be treated.
4. You celebrate others' joy. Be happy for other people. Their accomplishments , their dreams etc. genuinely be happy for them.
Karma may or may not happen. But isn't the way I live at least give some marks in your book ? Isn't living righteous a good thing regardless of happens to us in the end ? I'm certainly not asking you to consider this "mumbo jumbo-in your perspective". I'm just telling you on which basis I live and what are your thoughts on it.
(October 27, 2015 at 5:06 am)robvalue Wrote: I wouldn't even call it a coincidence. He did a bunch of illegal stuff and finally got found out. I don't see why there is the need for any greater mystery.
Good analogy sir. But why did he get caught ? What stopped him from doing all the mischief under the sun. Who or what decides that time frame in which he gets caught.
"No one saves us but ourselves. No one can and no one may. We ourselves must walk the path" - Gautama Buddha
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RE: Sin & Forgiveness
October 27, 2015 at 6:03 am
(This post was last modified: October 27, 2015 at 6:03 am by robvalue.)
I do all those four things you list too, for living a moral life. It appears we come to the same conclusions 
Why did he get caught? I can't possibly know the specifics. Maybe he made a mistake, maybe someone became suspicious, maybe he tried to bribe the wrong person... Life is complicated, and it appears you're trying to reduce it to simplistic narratives so that it all fits nicely together. I can't stop you believing that two events are directly linked by cause and effect, but I have no idea how you can test such a thing.
Realistically, good and bad things happen to everyone. So if you predict "doing that thing you just did will mean you eventually get something good/bad happen to you", then you are predicting something that is almost certain to happen anyway.
The more shit you cause in this life, the more likely people will get fed up or catch you out. So that's really no mystery. The better you treat people, the better in general they will treat you. If I go smash all my neighbour's windows, there are going to be repercussions. That's not karma, it's just common sense. They don't want me smashing their windows so they're going to do something about it.
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RE: Sin & Forgiveness
October 27, 2015 at 8:34 am
(This post was last modified: October 27, 2015 at 8:50 am by The Grand Nudger.)
On that very final count I'd agree..sure. Live a good life, regardless. I'm trying to help you live that good life, by suggesting that a victim blaming faith system isn't a part of it. Your system of moral practices might work, if you'd actually use it.......
Wheres 1 or 2 in telling a girl that she decided, in her last life, to be raped in this life? Would you accept this explanation if you were raped...wheres 3? Seems to me you're reveling more in the misery of others, than their joy...when we started in on this you could have said "well, sometimes good people don;t get enough good before they die..where's the justice?" -but you didn't, you're clearly much more concerned with punishment, and that people can't escape it. So where's 4?
The comments you make are what give you marks, in my book -good or bad-..not the ramblings you claim to live your life by. My thought, is that your moral system is ineffective - at least in your case, and that karma simply can't fit in with it, as you've described it, - regardless of it's truth.
@ Rob
Quote:They don't want me smashing their windows so they're going to do something about it.
-mention is required...of all those times that people -can't- do anything about it, and karma fails to manifest its awesome power in retribution. We're told "in the next life"...yeah, sure, and Jehovahs going to judge them, and Allahs going to toss them in a lake of fire, and they'll be fed to The Devourer after MAAT has weighed in. Each and every one an empty promise, hollow assurance made by those who very literally know nothing of the subject...... and yet prattle on endlessly about justice and morality nevertheless.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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