(November 10, 2015 at 12:45 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: No there are many other reasons: 1) Vanity: If God exists then you cannot set yourself up as your own god, 2) Lust & Greed: If God exists then you can justify your favorite immorality, 3) Relativism: If God doesn't exist then you can make up your own personal truth and no one can tell you you're wrong. The list goes on.

(Emboldened by me)

I think I'm detecting a pattern. How about we take care of those basics first and get to the deep end in all good time?

Chad's already jumped into the deep end.

(November 10, 2015 at 12:45 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: No there are many other reasons: 1) Vanity: If God exists then you cannot set yourself up as your own god, 2) Lust & Greed: If God exists then you can justify your favorite immorality, 3) Relativism: If God doesn't exist then you can make up your own personal truth and no one can tell you you're wrong. The list goes on.

And nevermind that list falls short on oh so many levels. The only thing that might motivate me to believe, is to meet my relatives, friends and dogs again. But try as I might, I couldn't believe, even when sitting at my parent's deathbeds. I had to come to grips that my only consolation will be oblivion.

(November 9, 2015 at 4:08 pm)jenny1972 Wrote:

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(November 9, 2015 at 3:11 pm)Drich Wrote: It seems the actual thread went off in several directions, the strongest was a discussion on the validity of Paul himself as an apostle. which is fine, and i ask if you wish to discuss this post in that thread. The next biggest point of discussion was on the correlation between the differences Paul lays out in Evil and Sin. He starts in romans 1 identifying what Evil is and How God deals with Evil people. The short answer is Evil is not about what we do, but how we look at the sin. Meaning our actions have no 'evil' in them/the acts are not graded on a morality scale as most of you believe. It is our heart or love for these sinful acts that makes them/us evil. Then he gives a list of how evil is manifest in people who do not want to know God. in short something as stupid as gossip can be considered Evil if you are not willing to repent of it.

Romans 2 Paul Verfies this by telling the members of the church or potential members that Do not judge those of Romans 1 as evil, because we can not know their hearts, and you can not judge their actions because every one of the sins (Meaning the physical act) mentioned in Romans 1 (and of the evil people who commit them) is also present in the people of romans 2 (the church) The only difference is the people of romans 1 love their sin, and God has turned them over to their sins, while the people of romans 2 know what they do is wrong and want to repent of it.

Just incase you did not want to eye bleed through 50 pages of dry step by step explaination repeated over and over..

The most important take away here is 'evil acts' are not a progression declining bottom level sin. (worst of the worse) Evil is a love for sin. A love for sin that is greater than a love for God. (Which means any sin no matter how small can be evil) When this truly happens God turns the evil person over to their sin. Meaning the sinner justifies or even makes their sin apart of their 'morality.' Sin becomes right, and God's Righteousness becomes wrong.

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Quote:if God didnt want us to sin and we will burn in hell for eternity for sinning then why did God create sin in the first place and create us to enjoy sinning ?

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so " paul starts in romans 1 identifying what Evil is and How God deals with Evil people. " -  how a just and fair and loving God should "deal with evil people" is to apologize for the suffering that he created for humanity and spending the rest of eternity making up for it - not sending his confused innocent creations to eternal torture ... so the god of your bible created evil put his innocent creations in a world he allowed to be corrupted by evil and allowed the people to be deceived by evil and sin and then is going to judge them for sinning and being decieved by the evil that he put here ...



ok go on 

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Biblical sin is nothing more than disobeying what you've been told to do or not do.  If the God character tells you to gut and roast an entire town it's not a sin to do that.  It's a sin if you don't do it.  It's a sin for Jews to charge other Jews interest.  It's perfectly acceptable for them to gouge Gentiles with high interest rates.  Jesus said so.  Rape isn't a sin if it's done under the right circumstances.  

Evil is simply disobedience.  Cain wasn't evil or sinful when he killed Abel because God never said that he couldn't kill him.  Abraham got a gold star because he killed Isaac although he lied to get Isaac in a position to kill him.  Of course in the fairy tale the crazy old coot didn't kill Isaac, he just did everything necessary to do it.  Later on Jesus said that if you think it you've done it.

(November 10, 2015 at 4:12 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Chad's already jumped into the deep end.

Deep end of a cesspool. He didn't jump into it. He incubated in it.

(November 10, 2015 at 7:32 pm)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote:

(November 9, 2015 at 4:08 pm)jenny1972 Wrote:

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so " paul starts in romans 1 identifying what Evil is and How God deals with Evil people. " -  how a just and fair and loving God should "deal with evil people" is to apologize for the suffering that he created for humanity and spending the rest of eternity making up for it - not sending his confused innocent creations to eternal torture ... so the god of your bible created evil put his innocent creations in a world he allowed to be corrupted by evil and allowed the people to be deceived by evil and sin and then is going to judge them for sinning and being decieved by the evil that he put here ...



ok go on 

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Biblical sin is nothing more than disobeying what you've been told to do or not do.  If the God character tells you to gut and roast an entire town it's not a sin to do that.  It's a sin if you don't do it.  It's a sin for Jews to charge other Jews interest.  It's perfectly acceptable for them to gouge Gentiles with high interest rates.  Jesus said so.  Rape isn't a sin if it's done under the right circumstances.  

Evil is simply disobedience.  Cain wasn't evil or sinful when he killed Abel because God never said that he couldn't kill him.  Abraham got a gold star because he killed Isaac although he lied to get Isaac in a position to kill him.  Of course in the fairy tale the crazy old coot didn't kill Isaac, he just did everything necessary to do it.  Later on Jesus said that if you think it you've done it.

i wonder what drich will have to say (if he ever returns to his abandoned bible study) about the difference between the god of the old testament and the new testament if jesus is god and if god doesnt change jesus - god is completely different than OT god . jesus does not seem like god in the OT at all actually the opposite of god in the OT . well at least its consistently illogical

(November 10, 2015 at 12:45 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: No there are many other reasons:

1) Vanity: If God exists then you cannot set yourself up as your own god,

2) Lust & Greed: If God exists then you can justify your favorite immorality,

3) Relativism: If God doesn't exist then you can make up your own personal truth and no one can tell you you're wrong. The list goes on.

1) If you think God exists then you believe you are in the gang of the biggest Alpha Male tyrant in all of recorded history,

2) If you think God exists then you can justify your favorite immorality (like, say, teaching that women are not the equals of men, that it's okay to kill nonbelievers, adulteresses, blasphemers, heretics, backtalking children, homosexuals, and the tribes over the next hill who worship the "wrong" deities, or none),

3) If you think God exists no one can tell you you're wrong because you think you have The Truth™ from the Highest Authority™, even when the evidence is staring you in the face that you're wrong.

The list goes on.

(November 9, 2015 at 4:08 pm)jenny1972 Wrote: if God didnt want us to sin and we will burn in hell for eternity for sinning then why did God create sin in the first place and create us to enjoy sinning ?

We don't all burn in Hell for sin. None are without sin, meaning the our population of Heaven will be all Sinners. The people who will be sent to Hell are unrepentant in their sin. That's an important distinction. The population of Heaven and hell will have people who have commited the act same acts all their lives. The only difference the population of Hell turned from God and the atonement He offers.

Quote:so " paul starts in romans 1 identifying what Evil is and How God deals with Evil people. " -  how a just and fair and loving God should "deal with evil people" is to apologize for the suffering that he created for humanity and spending the rest of eternity making up for it - not sending his confused innocent creations to eternal torture

Why? Evil is the absence of innocence. Even from your pop morality world view, you can identify evil (more evil than you anyway.) Say for example, Jihadie John, (the isis guy with a british accent cutting hostages heads off with a dull knife.) Even the most morally watered down person in the united states can see the evil this man has in himself. So you just because you live to a different standard make eternal reperations to him and people like Him? meaning you must let him have full access to you and those you love if he so chooses.. Or should this 'man' be seperated from you and your community?

The problem of Evil is not the acts themselves Because given enough time (say eternity future) everyone's 'morality' will degrade to the level of jihadie john or worse if the have the seed of evil in their hearts. We can look at our own history to see this 'moral decay' just with in a few generations. Imagine what we would be like if evil were left unchecked for millions of years.

Quote:so the god of your bible created evil put his innocent creations in a world he allowed to be corrupted by evil and allowed the people to be deceived by evil and sin and then is going to judge them for sinning and being decieved by the evil that he put here ...
ok go on 

Maybe read Genesis 1..God did not create an Evil world nor did he put man into one. We welcomed it with open arms. What was done in the garden is repeated in each and every one of our lives. Meaning we (according to Paul/Romans 1-2) select Evil or decide to repent of our sin

(November 9, 2015 at 9:03 pm)KevinM1 Wrote: So, when Drich makes his weak rhetorical jab, he refuses to answer two important questions:

1. Are we completely off-base with our criticisms?  I'd say no, he'd say yes, so whatever.

Show me 1 criticism that with stood my rebuttal. We have 50+ pages of criticism and as far as I know I answered EVERY SINGLE ONE.
So ask yourself honestly "Are your Criticisms off base?" The honest answers is Yes everything you have brought to me thus far has been.

Quote:2. What's the purpose behind learning more about Christianity?

Enlightenment.
To move past ignorance, bigotry and hate for something you do not understand. My dad hates 'space book' because he does not understand it. He does know what he is looking at, he doesn't know who sees what, he just goes off all the negitive other people tell him, and assumes it is all true.
This genre' of blind ignorance is what incited linch mobs. To which the only cure is education. Know your opponet and what he stands for if for no other reason than to expel blind hate from your heart.

 

Quote:My mom doesn't want/need to learn the mechanics of operating Facebook - even though she's beyond qualified - because it doesn't serve a purpose for her.  It doesn't give her anything she can't get elsewhere, and in better quality (connection with family online vs. on the phone/in person).

My dad thinks the same thing.. however his grand kids live 1000 miles away, and my sister gives daily up dates on facebook. Which he wants no part of so he feels left out because he knows nothing of them or what is going on. In essence He does not know what is missing without the use of this tool in his life. Yes he can live a life without this tool, but life comes more enjoiable when he has this tool to use to connect with those he loves. The same is true here. Yes you can live without the tools (bible, Religion) but how do you know what your missing? What in your life could you possible compare to what God offers?

Quote:We have no need for a god, any god.  So, what's the purpose - why should we care - about learning about Paul and Romans?

again to move you from a position of ignorance and hate about God about Christianity to one of simple disagreement.

It is the difference between a 'christian' who believes 'god hates fags' and one who understand the lessons Paul in romans 1 and 2 is teaching to see being Gay (while still a sin) is no different than the sexual sin in our own lives. By educating ourselves we are forced to move from the mob mentality of bigotry and hate to one that encompasses what the bible says. How does that work for you? One it stops to foolish broken questions that assume all christians are members of the westbrough baptist church. And it gives you the proper ammo to fight someone who is.

Know your opponet, know his strengths and his weaknesses. Avoid one stab at the other. Who knows you may even convert a few toxic faith christians.

(November 10, 2015 at 7:50 pm)jenny1972 Wrote:

(November 10, 2015 at 7:32 pm)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote: Biblical sin is nothing more than disobeying what you've been told to do or not do.  If the God character tells you to gut and roast an entire town it's not a sin to do that.  It's a sin if you don't do it.  It's a sin for Jews to charge other Jews interest.  It's perfectly acceptable for them to gouge Gentiles with high interest rates.  Jesus said so.  Rape isn't a sin if it's done under the right circumstances.  

Evil is simply disobedience.  Cain wasn't evil or sinful when he killed Abel because God never said that he couldn't kill him.  Abraham got a gold star because he killed Isaac although he lied to get Isaac in a position to kill him.  Of course in the fairy tale the crazy old coot didn't kill Isaac, he just did everything necessary to do it.  Later on Jesus said that if you think it you've done it.

i wonder what drich will have to say (if he ever returns to his abandoned bible study) about the difference between the god of the old testament and the new testament if jesus is god and if god doesnt change jesus - god is completely different than OT god . jesus does not seem like god in the OT at all actually the opposite of god in the OT . well at least its consistently illogical

Taking a day off =/= abandoned.

The God of the OT is the God of the NT.

Jesus just takes the wrath upon Himself on the cross so we (in this life) live free from it.