(November 21, 2015 at 8:35 am)KevinM1 Wrote: Again, I have to ask what is the long term plan for the refugees?  The debate is focused on whether or not to let them in at all, but I haven't heard much in the way of what the plan is once they're here.  Once the immediate humanitarian crisis is addressed, then what?

They go on Social Security, get business and house loans, become tax exempt for a few years, get college admissions, and piss and moan about being mistreated.

I don't know how exactly someone can just announce to all Muslims that they are the new leader and that what they say about the Quran goes. The fact that people are busy slaughtering each other over different interpretations doesn't give me hope that they'll buy it. It will be more like who is left alive.

(November 21, 2015 at 9:09 am)robvalue Wrote: Killing innocent, uninvolved people should never be considered a "reaction" other than that of a deranged psycopath. It seems brutal religious indoctrination and the right culture can produce large numbers of people who don't care about anyone not in their cult.

If I'm not mistaken, the Quran promotes the idea that non-Muslims are lesser, not even worthy of being called human. This probably extends to people who aren't interpreting Islam "correctly" as well.

In the Old Testament only Jews were called men.  The Middle East is a den of religious nuttery.

(November 21, 2015 at 12:06 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(November 21, 2015 at 8:35 am)KevinM1 Wrote: Again, I have to ask what is the long term plan for the refugees?  The debate is focused on whether or not to let them in at all, but I haven't heard much in the way of what the plan is once they're here.  Once the immediate humanitarian crisis is addressed, then what?

I must admit I don't have an answer for that. I don't know. All I know is that these people are fleeing for their lives and they need help. We have to help them. At least take them in first so they are out of the immediate danger, and then work together to figure out how best to handle it once their lives aren't in danger anymore.

It would have been better if they had gone to the largest muslim country, Indonesia, and the home of Islam, Saudi Arabia.  Turkey has always wanted to rule the area so Turkey should have taken a million or so.  Then some could have gone to Somalia, since those guys there are so Islamic.

(November 21, 2015 at 12:14 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(November 21, 2015 at 11:59 am)Minimalist Wrote: When xtianity had actual totalitarian control over large populations they were pretty much dicks, too.  Perhaps you remember?




Holy horseshitters are the same no matter what stupid hat they wear.

Why don't you think people can change though? That was centuries ago. The people involved are long dead, their children are long dead, their great great grandchildren are long dead, etc. I'm not saying it wasn't a horrible, heinous thing, neither am I saying there was any excuse for it. But I don't see the point in blaming the Christian people of today for how other Christians were during a certain age centuries ago. People have changed, times have changed, and we have evolved and learned from our mistakes. Islam can change too, and if/when they do, we shouldn't be blaming the future generation of people for the horrible things their great great great great ancestors did.

But it's biblical to blame people for what their ancestors did.  http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_law...3_03b.html

(November 21, 2015 at 2:55 pm)Dystopia Wrote:

(November 21, 2015 at 12:03 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: We can see MK here, our resident Muslim, and see that he is a perfectly good and moral person. If his interpretation/understanding of the Koran and of Islam was some sort of official Islamic law, documented in their doctrine, it would be completely fine. The Islam religion doesn't need to be obliterated. Just reformed.

MK is not really the representative of Islam, and he certainly isn't the most average example of what a Muslim is, like you are not the most common example of what a Catholic is. Exceptions do not change the rules, they stand out against everyone else and shine. Margaret Tatcher was prime minister during a time when sexism was still grossly common, but that didn't mean sexism ceased to exist, she was simply an exception to the rule.

Actually, yes I am lol. I spent my whole life in Catholic groups/communities and I am a very accurate representation of a practicing Catholic in the US. Can't say anything about MK though, I guess he can confirm or deny this.

(November 21, 2015 at 2:37 pm)Minimalist Wrote:

Quote:It keeps happening because of the root of the problem: the fact that there is no order in Islam

There is no order in xtianity, either, but finally they did stop.

Complex problems do not have simple solutions.  That, right there, is the fundamental problem of American foreign policy as practiced since about 1900.

You know, if we stop selling them arms they would have to finish their war with sticks and swords.  How very koranic! 

Finally,

Quote: I don't think it's right for us, as the richest and most powerful country in the world

You need to lose that idea.  We are the most indebted nation in the world precisely because we have been trying to do exactly what you are suggesting.  And military power has not proven to be terribly effective.

You really need to ask yourself how it is that ISIS can take 1,000 assholes, give them a swing across the monkey bars, hand them an AK-47 and send them out to chase 30,000 well-equipped Iraqi "soldiers" out of Mosul in an afternoon?  All this shit about "training" rebels is exactly that.  Shit.  It's a panacea.  Commitment to a cause is what matters.  You need to understand that we always back the wrong horse.  You also need to understand that we are bankrupting ourselves trying to occupy the whole world.

Americans always think that training and education will solve all problems.  Sometimes whacking the idiot upside his head with a club is more effective.

Speaking of Mosul, Saud conquered Riyadh with just 40 men.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Saud
How few will it take to conquer Paris and Berlin?

(November 21, 2015 at 3:09 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(November 21, 2015 at 2:23 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I dunno... I don't think it's right for us, as the richest and most powerful country in the world, to sit back and let them kill innocent people and children. Not only that, but they won't just keep the slaughtering on their own soil. They will terrorize the West and kill people there too... as they have always done. And then of course, we have the problem of refugees leaving the country and needing to find a home somewhere... which is what is happening now.  

I disagree. Middle Easterners have a proverb: Me and my brother against my cousin; me and my cousin against the world -- meaning that internecine struggle will stay that way so long as the outer world stays out of it.  If the West intervened in a Muslim sectarian war, they would drop their fight with each other and band together to fight the Western incursion.

They won't cease terror attacks against us right away, but if there were a Muslim schismatic war, the attacks on the West would peter out, because in a war, you focus your power on your immediate enemy; you don't scatter your attacks, because you dissipate your own military power that way.

Look at it this way: Yemen is in the middle of a bloody civil war.  When's the last time a terrorist plot against the West originated in Yemen?

(November 21, 2015 at 2:23 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Furthermore, Jihad has been going on ever since Islam first came into existence. It seems if they were going to learn on their own that killing is wrong, it would have happened a while back ago.

Not necessarily. Some lessons must be searing in order to stick.

(November 21, 2015 at 2:23 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: It keeps happening because of the root of the problem: the fact that there is no order in Islam and that anyone can read the Koran (a violent book) in any way they like and go around killing people in the name of Mohammed.

By this logic, there should also be Protestant terrorism.

(November 21, 2015 at 2:23 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Islam needs to be reformed from within. There are a lot of really bad Muslims, but there are more good Muslims than bad ones. These good Muslim folks, who are the majority, need to face this problem head on and figure out how they're going to deal with it. Obviously it won't happen overnight. It may take centuries. But it needs to be done and it needs to start somewhere, at some time, otherwise this will never end.

I don't know that the process hasn't already started, but is simply under the radar right now.

Answer to the bold blue:

That's what I'm saying, though. Christianity and Islam are not exactly the same, and won't react the same and have the same problems. The New Testament is not the same as the Koran, the same way that Jesus is not the same as Mohammad. Different religions, different cultures, different history, different ideologies, different traditions, and so and so on. I know you hate religion, but that does not mean all religions are the same. There's plenty of diversity, and not all religious people are going to act the same way, especially if they are from different religions.

(November 21, 2015 at 3:32 pm)Minimalist Wrote:

Quote:These good Muslim folks, who are the majority, need to face this problem head on and figure out how they're going to deal with it.

Religions...all religions...define a" a good _________" differently.  A good catholic obeys the pope.  A good muslim obeys the koran.  What is needed is more bad muslims who are willing to say "fuck this primitive shit...it's the 21st century."

Like I said earlier, when I say "good Muslim" I just mean a good person to our 21st century standards. This does not need to be explained or analyzed. Someone who doesn't go around killing people and forcing others to believe what they believe... or someone who supports either of those acts.

(November 21, 2015 at 12:03 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: We can see MK here, our resident Muslim, and see that he is a perfectly good and moral person. If his interpretation/understanding of the Koran and of Islam was some sort of official Islamic law, documented in their doctrine, it would be completely fine. The Islam religion doesn't need to be obliterated. Just reformed.

Thanks for your kind words.  I am no authority in religion. All I can do is voice what I believe, and if it's on insight, perhaps others will see it.  The Quran is mostly a silent teacher. It's not meant to speak unless a speaker makes it speak. I believe God chosen leaders to guide us, but as they were rejected, he safeguarded the final one and cut him off from the community.  I think ultimately we need that chosen leader that God will manifest and unite humanity upon. 

A lot of my views to the credit is due to my parents.  My dad for example when once I tried to speak about the wisdom of cutting off fingers when stealing explained in a long conversation about context, time and place, and how now we have institutions of reforming people that back then they could not afford due to the circumstance the Prophet and his followers were in.  

He also believers other laws might have been for the circumstance (since for example society was so engrossed in fornication in public places it was necessary to be put some harsh rules).

I myself don't know if such a rule was meant for a certain time or all time. 

I would say those laws are perhaps eternal in the sense if the circumstance ever came up again, it would be required.  However in different circumstances the laws don't apply.

But as others say, we are a minority. And we aren't scholars.