Godschild Wrote:

Quote:Maybe your feeling of judgement from her is actually guilt on your part. You are the one who chose to change not her, so why wouldn't you expect her to react differently towards you, it's only natural.

GC

I can see how you got that, because no one would get the impression she was being judgmental just from her words.

And reasonable folk aren't quick to condemn a friend's change of heart. One might say that how someone reacts to something like that says something about what kind of friend they are. No one needs a 'friend' whose friendship is conditional on them not changing.

Maybe if the 'having Jesus in her heart' thing was real, she could have behaved more like Jesus did with sinners, and provided understanding, patience, and her own shining example that she is filled with grace.

(January 11, 2016 at 6:30 pm)Godschild Wrote:

(January 9, 2016 at 9:32 pm)drfuzzy Wrote: Oh please.  With all of the books written, all of the analysis done, no contradictions in the scriptures??  Just what kind of freaking blinders would somebody have to be wearing to even say such a thing?

Here:  Bibvis    Bibviz.com.   673 Biblical contradictions, for a start, laid out nice and clean, with all sorts of informational links.

Those have been falsified, want to bring something new.

GC

Legion.

(January 12, 2016 at 4:35 am)Godschild Wrote: <Removed huge wall of text>

GC

I'm not going to respond inline because I'm not interested in doing a tit for tat on every minor point.

1. I'm not going to try to convince you that you're living a lie, because you've already said that nothing could sway you from your faith.  I was also unshakable in terms of other people talking me out of my belief, so I get that.  I had to deconstruct it on my own.

2. I'm not saying that it's impossible that I'm 100% wrong and that your faith is legitimate.  I'm saying that our conclusions are incompatible.  I can't reach the conclusion that it was all a delusion and still accept that it's true for other people.  I think you're probably sincere in your beliefs, just as I was, but now I'm just as sincere in my non-belief.

3. If God is Truth then Truth is God.  Your objection to this point makes no sense, plus you contradicted yourself.  You said "truth can never be God" and in the next sentence you said "God is truth, love, compassion, caring, salvation and ect".  You went on to say that God is reality, which makes my point for me.

4. You're basically saying that you turned to faith to guide you out of your doubt.  In other words, you relied on your subjective experience rather than what your five senses were telling you.  The biblical definition of faith is "the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen".  In other words, it's believing because you want something to be real, and the belief itself is what makes it reality.

5. You're asserting that 30+ years of trying to please God might not be sufficient time for God to make himself real to me.  The fact that I prayed, studied, taught Sunday school, ministered from the pulpit, tithed more than 10% of my income since childhood, enjoyed listening to sermons, counseled people, grieved over my sins, tried hard to live to the biblical standard, and refused to settle for anything less than a knowledge of the truth means nothing. 

6. You're asserting that my non-belief is my fault because I did not seek God, study the scriptures, or allow God to reveal himself to me.  Read #5 again.

7. I'm not really very good at science, but I'm pretty sure that dinosaur DNA survives because it's in fossils.  Do you know what a fossil is?  You're suggesting that the stuff science comes up with is puerile.  The only reason that a rational person would assert this is because those findings would seem to contradict their sacred book.  You're suggesting that I shouldn't trust something that there's mountains of evidence for, but yet it's silly not to accept something that there's no evidence for whatsoever.

8. Every assertion you make about me reveals how little you know about me.  Again, having come from religion, I understand this completely.  Every time someone makes a statement that opposes your worldview, you have to find a way to marginalize that person.  Either they were never a true Christian (seed that fell on stony ground) or they were a Christian who departed the faith because they loved "the world" too much (seed that fell among thorns).  Also, there's no such thing as agnostics or atheists.  They all believe deep down, but they're just in rebellion. 

I'm going to give you  more credit than others around here.  I think you're probably a sincere believer, but you live in a bubble.  Having just emerged from that bubble myself, I understand you completely.

---

(January 11, 2016 at 6:30 pm)Godschild Wrote:

(January 9, 2016 at 9:32 pm)drfuzzy Wrote: Oh please.  With all of the books written, all of the analysis done, no contradictions in the scriptures??  Just what kind of freaking blinders would somebody have to be wearing to even say such a thing?

Here:  Bibvis    Bibviz.com.   673 Biblical contradictions, for a start, laid out nice and clean, with all sorts of informational links.

Those have been falsified, want to bring something new.

GC

Did you go through all 673?  You're sure at a glance that all 673 have been falsified?

Nice takedown! Spot on

I agree, GC probably really does believe the stuff he says. He also makes zero effort to try and see things from any other point of view, which is why I gave up discourse with him after making the effort I try to make with everyone.

(January 12, 2016 at 9:49 am)robvalue Wrote:

(January 12, 2016 at 5:57 am)Rhythm Wrote: Nothing even remotely close, no.  I've had an inexplicable experience or two, but nothing on the periphery of the divine.

That's what I mean though. Inexplicable is enough. There is no "divine", there is just people misinterpreting events or making up explanations.

Obviously hallucinations are easier to assign bullshit to, and I've only had a few. I suppose not everyone will ever have any.

I had one incredibly detailed and vivid one, but I can't quite rule out it being a dream. I really don't know if I was awake or not. It would be very easy to persuade myself I was awake if I wanted it to have significance. Real easy.

Nah, can't be the same...  Me and some buddies got circled on a mountaintop in the middle of the night by something we couldn't see on flir or NV, but which sounded like an elephant trampling through the brush.  Scared the shit out of us, I'm talkin safeties off ready to rock scared.  That kind of inexplicable.  Pretty sure it was some feral children trying to scuttle past...but still, should have been able to see them....I own the night, lol.  OBVs this is ad hoc, and based essentially upon nothing...except that I can't imagine what else it -could- have been.

I don't think that this would qualify, even in a believers mind, as an experience of the "divine".  It's certainly nothing like these things people report as part of parcel of their "born again" experiences. No meaning, no message, no sense of any overarching structure. Just noises in the brush.

OK, cool

I'm sure some people would still see that as a sign that God hates gays or something.

LOL, perhaps.  I'd be disappointed, though, if that's all that people are referring to with these experiences...something like that.  Or if, indeed...this sort of experience actually -is- a sign from god....that the majesty of the almighty amounts to little more than noises in a bush.   I suppose that's happened before...lol....but they make it sound like it's a whole hell of alot more, you know?

(January 12, 2016 at 1:26 pm)Rhythm Wrote:

(January 12, 2016 at 9:49 am)robvalue Wrote: That's what I mean though. Inexplicable is enough. There is no "divine", there is just people misinterpreting events or making up explanations.

Obviously hallucinations are easier to assign bullshit to, and I've only had a few. I suppose not everyone will ever have any.

I had one incredibly detailed and vivid one, but I can't quite rule out it being a dream. I really don't know if I was awake or not. It would be very easy to persuade myself I was awake if I wanted it to have significance. Real easy.

Nah, can't be the same...  Me and some buddies got circled on a mountaintop in the middle of the night by something we couldn't see on flir or NV, but which sounded like an elephant trampling through the brush.  Scared the shit out of us, I'm talkin safeties off ready to rock scared.  That kind of inexplicable.  Pretty sure it was some feral children trying to scuttle past...but still, should have been able to see them....I own the night, lol.  OBVs this is ad hoc, and based essentially upon nothing...except that I can't imagine what else it -could- have been.

I don't think that this would qualify, even in a believers mind, as an experience of the "divine".  It's certainly nothing like these things people report as part of parcel of their "born again" experiences.  No meaning, no message, no sense of any overarching structure.  Just noises in the brush.

" feral children " ?

Hehe

I'd bet a penny to a pound they exaggerate, often without meaning to, and their "big fish" memory gets out of control.

But you're right, yours isn't very impressive (sorry)

I've had much stranger experiences than that, which I have put down to hallucinations. I can't properly remember most of them. I've only had relatively few, mind you. And most of them occurred while I was very sleepy.

(January 12, 2016 at 2:15 pm)MTL Wrote: " feral children " ?

Yup, the worlds a shitty place MTL.  When the parents legs are longer than the childs...every so often, the child gets left behind. Also, not particularly nice when they've been left to their own devices. I used to worry about waking up with a slit throat over some MRE's. Totally irrational, they mostly avoided -us-..but I still slept with my rucksack open and a few feet from me, make it easier to take my shit...without starting shit, know what I mean?

@ Rob...you might think it isn't impressive in the retelling of it, but it had a group of pretty well seasoned infantrymen scared of the dark.   It was a shared moment of utter dread, lol.