(February 2, 2016 at 2:12 pm)Drich Wrote:

(February 2, 2016 at 12:03 am)Brakeman Wrote: Since jesus is god and of the same mind as his alter ego god, then the law was from himself as well. He couldn't change his mind as god without admitting to error and he couldn't help but think the same godly thoughts as god. Saying jesus completed the law has no meaning beyond saying god completed the law unless you say that his laws were imperfect or incomplete. Sin was defiance from jesus just the same. Furthermore one can't atone to oneself.
It's just such a silly story.

The law was complete when it was issued. 'we' (as Jesus pointed out) just did not have the understanding/capacity to understand the Law and it's intent when it was initially issued. When Jesus 'completed the law He did not change, He simply explained it.

OK so god made the error of poor communication by using a level above his audience and he corrected it by making a part of himself into his son to explain it but yet again failed miserably since hardly any two christians agree on the meaning of the new testament either.. What a massive FAIL !

(February 6, 2016 at 1:37 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote:

(February 6, 2016 at 1:17 pm)Drich Wrote: how so? because I am willing to think for my self? because i will not yeild to the sugar coating the world puts on things? Because i am willing to call a spade a spade?

What worries me are sheep who toe the soceital line with out question. "I Vas Jost Fowlling Or-ders Mine fure"

You were advocating a war of genocide, presumably against muslims. And the last western power to commit genocide were the ones "just following orders" so you have it arse about face.

...And you guys call yourself thinkers...

We are IN A RELIGIOUS GENOCIDAL WAR!!! It does not matter how the BBC or CNN spins it! The people we are fighting will not stop till we are all gone. Like wise just because Anderson Cooper hasn't told you that we are going to have to Kill Every Man woman and Child in the Islamic State, and or organizations like that Does not mean our goverments are not gearing up for these fights. Look at the past wars these people take on. they don't last decades, but centuries! Until all of one side or another are dead. And we are not fighting an army who will line up in front of us as we line up infront of them and blast till one set of soldiers kills another set. This is every man woman and child who belong to this radical group is a potential combatant, why? not for geopotical reasons no, it's because their gods say so. The Last time we faced a prospect like this, and a decades long fight  we deployed Nuclear bombs. The only reason we did not keep bombing is because Japan's 'god' was afraid of getting nuked so he surrendered.

Guess what... Their god is not going to surrender. So because this is about heaven and hell for them, they will not stop.

This has nothing to do with me one way or another. This is soceity, this is pop culture and it is just a matter of time before we have to demote people of that specific brand of islam out of the human race... And for people like you who blindly follow pop morality you will do what ever with out question

that was what I meant by "just following orders"

This will be your response Mr. morality when you are questioned at your trial!

(February 6, 2016 at 12:57 pm)Drich Wrote: But what if the test questions are not about right or wrong?
What if the 'test' is about giving yourself over, no matter what you understand or your circumstances?

If the "test" isn't about right or wrong then it is either morally bankrupt, devoid of meaning or both. It is a teaching of mindless subservience, nothing more.

Quote: But again, remove Morality, remove the law and what is "right." Thats what atonement does. it removes the law as our means to righteousness. So we (christian) are no longer judged by the law, unless we in our freedom adopt the laws of a given religion in an effort to understand God. then we are bound to the rules we 'bind here on earth.'

Atonement, redemption. These are terms of righting a wrong. You cannot have a wrong being righted without some kind of moral code at play. This is nonsense.

Quote:the whole point to this thread is about showing how our current justifications 'pop morality' are really no different than the pop morality of Nazi Germany. What is different is how we market and sell our evil so that it is accepted. Now take a step back from that and look at the big picture, we will see this level of evil spread out through Human history. Nothing has changed only our justifications for the evil we are willing to adopt.

Now thankfully Christ will atone for said evil IF we we use everything we've been given to seek and develop a relationship with Him.

The only reason you can judge yourself better than other cultures or other generations is because you have been fooled into accepting the marketing that your current 'morality' is far superior, because you do not do the things others have done... But again if you look honestly at all of the things this soceity has accepted (slavery, infanticide, genocide) it's no different than those who did not hide their activities behind 'marketing.'

Nazi Germany? Are you seriously this desperate for attention that you would sensationalize to that extent?
Show me the showers disguised as gas chambers. Show me the concentration camps. Show me the genocide. Its bad enough you're resorting to scattershot. Do you *really* have to add the shameless invoking of atrocities at the drop of a hat to the list of offences? Yes, capitalism is a shitty, morally bankrupt system and its a damn shame we haven't come up with a better one but Nazi Germany? What next? Stalinist Russia? Maybe you would like to invoke Pol Pot or Kim Jong Il while you're at it? Have some self-respect.

Quote: You can bearly phathom this concept, look at your questions.. Not being mean, but if you can't fully grasp what this freedom means how we got it and why, how do you expect to rightfully use this freedom? this freedom is not meant for you to do what you want, but it is God freeing you to do your best to worship and work for Him. To live for self means you have not accepted the atonement needed to be free.

Adopting a church is the first step. one many never move past, but again that's ok too. However once you adopt a church and your understanding of this freedom grows, and your exercise  of this freedom becomes a stumbling block to others, or you find the rules and rituals prohibiting to your walk, then it is time to find a church that best suits your growing understanding.. Once you master the basics and have a strong relationship with God then it is time to teach/share.

Do not presume what I can fathom, I would ask you to look at your lack of questions. If freedom isn't meant for doing what I want then it isn't freedom. Its a longer leash.

Quote:It's CHRISTanity so...Christ.

Oh so I can make an assumption on that? Sorry, what with me making an assumption that you thought an interpretation being right or wrong actually mattered I just didn't want to make the same mistake.

Quote:Yes, that's the point. With the first guy he was given a full share of say, knowledge of God and God's kingdom. So He uses his full share and turns a profit for God, meaning he used his knoweledge and was able to save a bunch of people. So he is rewarded, and given more (heaven)

Guy number two get a 2/3's share of knowledge because that is all he can handle and does the same, with a 2/3's share resulting in a proportional growth/profit. He did not make as much as the first guy dollar/saved soul wise, but he did indeed double what he was given as the first guy did.

Guy number three gets a 1/3 share, because he can't handle any more responsibility than that. So rather than do anything with his share he burys it, because he does not want to loose what he has been given.
This guy represents the guy born into a given religion, goes to church every sunday and does not grow or does not change, he just as a matter of routine follows tradition and a comfortable pattern. Or this is the not born in the church who has been given intrest in God to find out more, but never really does anything about it. accept argue on AF.com (so all of you d-bags are safe )

To which, Jesus says this guy is punished/hell for not doing anything with what he was given. If he simply took his one talent and took it to the next level he would have received the same reward as the other two.

So again it is not about meeting a certain standard or producing certain numbers or having a singular common understanding. It's about using what God has given you to it's fullest. that is why your homo/sodom=adultry buddy is judged righteous if indeed only gave him those tools to work with.

But also remember God is not a fool. there is a difference between being all in and flat wrong and going through the motions of being all in.

By this logic right and wrong cease to have meaning. There are serial killers out there who fit the description of righteousness you provide. As long as they make the effort and truly believe they get in, regardless of their deeds. If they're The Big Labowski they go to hell. Its just silly.

Quote: Again I am not making a judgement here on what will be judged ok or not ok by christ.
I am pointing out, the hyprocrisy in creating a standard that says killing babies is wrong and then kill babies, by changing their classification. God will judge us with the very same standard we use to judge others. If you are all 'talents in' believe that killing babies is wrong and you say you can not follow a God who in the bible had babies Killed, you in turn will be judged by God using your own standard. He will show you that you supported a soceity that killed billions of babies hundreds of millions in the 3rd trimester...

If you think a baby in the third trimester is a clump of cells then go to youtube and do a search on partial birth abortion. that is where they give birth, feet first till the base of the skull is exposed insert scissors and suck out the baby's brain collapsing the head.. I posted some of these pics here before and was told to 'hide them' because they were so brutally graphic. These were viable children. they could have lived outside the womb.
These pictures were very disturbing because anyone with sight could see these were BABIES and not a clump of cells, which is why i was told to hide them.

But, again this is not an abortion debate, this is an example of how God will take your 'morality' and judge this generation by it, because you all are that 1 talent guy who's full understanding of right/wrong is 'morality' and you will not move past it, even though now you all have been made aware. so then it is by this standard in which you will be judged. And if I can point out big time hypocrisy laying right on top, how much harder will it be when an all knowing God scrutinizes your 'morality?'

That is why, it is much better to accept the atonement offered, than to pretend that your 'morality' means anything. In one or two generations even our grand children will judge us 'immoral' by the standards we use today. How then do we expect to use this standard to deem ourselves 'good people?'

We're the 1 talent guys? According to who Drich? I thought you couldn't make any judgments.
If you're not looking for an abortion debate I would advise you not to bring that sort of inflammatory nonsense into the discussion.
Of course it *looks* like that. If you go into a car factory and look at the early construction of a chassis what exactly are you expecting to see? It means nothing. "Could have?" Based on what? Going to take a wild guess here; based on how they looked and how that made you feel.
Why am I even humoring this? This is just another attempt to muddy the waters and dilute the subject.

Quote:So how many babies do you think he has order the death of?

Do I seriously have to go google every single passage where he orders the death of women and children? Do I need to bring up the Amelekites? Do I need to stress the fact *you* believe hes omnipotent, all knowing and set into motion all of creation and therefore bares ultimate responsibility for children killed by famine, disease and natural disasters that free will could not possibly play a role in? Are you seriously, after this long, not getting that basic of a premise. Stop wasting my time.
This is shameless scattershot specifically created to divert my attention and drain my energy.

Quote:Which is why we have so many different denominations...
Again We are Free to worship any way we can comprehend. For some that means being catholic, for others baptist, for others still it means being non denominational, and for others still it means being something that most 'christians' would not identify as Christian at all. But, Again 'we' are not in a position to say who is and who is not Christian. Our rituals works and/or understanding of the gospel is not what saves us. It is Christ who saves and Christ alone who judges who is and is not 'saved.' We are not saved by our little cermonies or chants. we are saved by Christ alone, not unto our works lest any of us should boast (about being the true form of christianity

Right, except we don't know what rules Christ is judging people by except that we have to believe in him and we need to "try our best" regardless of what we're doing. According to you. Yeah. Totally a sound basis for a moral compass. Well done.

Quote:Needs work, but more or less.

So. To conclude; you don't know Gods morality so you've taken an "educated" guess based on the writings of people from thousands of years ago who didn't know how electricity worked much less the universe and you encourage other people to take guesses based on similar books and form the entire basis for living their lives based on said guesses. This is how we should form our moral compass and govern our society regardless of how our moral compasses derived from age of enlightenment values may conflict.
Well, I'm convinced. Gods Commincation Skills 1 - 21st Century Society 0

Wrong forum post

So let's say I kill and rape a bunch of people, and say God told me to do it.

That would be "righteous", yes? All that matters is whether it's in line with what God wants. And if he commanded it, it must be what he wants. Unless you're calling God a liar.

Something tells me people who subscribe to this line of reasoning wouldn't congratulate me for killing their family based on voices in my head. I imagine they'd suddenly remember what scepticism is, and they'd care about the outcome of actions after all.

I don't know, maybe they wouldn't. Maybe they'd willingly hand over their family into slavery to me if I said God told me to take them as property.

(February 6, 2016 at 6:53 pm)Drich Wrote:

(February 6, 2016 at 1:37 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote: You were advocating a war of genocide, presumably against muslims. And the last western power to commit genocide were the ones "just following orders" so you have it arse about face.

...And you guys call yourself thinkers...

We are IN A RELIGIOUS GENOCIDAL WAR!!! It does not matter how the BBC or CNN spins it! The people we are fighting will not stop till we are all gone. Like wise just because Anderson Cooper hasn't told you that we are going to have to Kill Every Man woman and Child in the Islamic State, and or organizations like that Does not mean our goverments are not gearing up for these fights. Look at the past wars these people take on. they don't last decades, but centuries! Until all of one side or another are dead. And we are not fighting an army who will line up in front of us as we line up infront of them and blast till one set of soldiers kills another set. This is every man woman and child who belong to this radical group is a potential combatant, why? not for geopotical reasons no, it's because their gods say so. The Last time we faced a prospect like this, and a decades long fight  we deployed Nuclear bombs. The only reason we did not keep bombing is because Japan's 'god' was afraid of getting nuked so he surrendered.

Guess what... Their god is not going to surrender. So because this is about heaven and hell for them, they will not stop.

This has nothing to do with me one way or another. This is soceity, this is pop culture and it is just a matter of time before we have to demote people of that specific brand of islam out of the human race... And for people like you who blindly follow pop morality you will do what ever with out question

There are always nuts running around killing people, I can't really see what's so urgent now. There's the Christian nuts in Africa Joseph Kony etc, Islamic Boko Haram and ISIS etc and the political/criminals accross the world, it has always been this way, in fact more so in the past, so I see no need for exterminations "to the last child", which is what you seem to be having a hard on for.

If we left those people alone they'd kill -each other- to the last child.  

Meh, in any case we've seen in this thread why the religiously afflicted need to be kept as far away from the decision-making apparatus as possible.

I'll repeat what I said in another thread:

Christians have taken a particular subjective morality, and declared that they will follow it and never change it. Of course, I don't actually believe them on the whole, but that's what they claim. They then call this "objective morality", although you'll be hard pressed to find two Christians who agree on the contents.

So what? All they've said is that they can't ever improve, towards any goal they may decide is important, because they've anchored themselves to bygone standards.

Everyone who is prepared to examine and update their morality can improve themselves, with respect to particular goals.

(February 6, 2016 at 7:10 pm)RaphielDrake Wrote: If the "test" isn't about right or wrong then it is either morally bankrupt, devoid of meaning or both. It is a teaching of mindless subservience, nothing more.

It is about obedience, yes. I don't think one can classify it as mindless obedience because just look how much time and effort it has taken to get you to understand this 'simple' principle.

Right and wrong to play a role, but the 'test' is not about right or wrong, the test is to be obediant, once we are we will be given the Holy Spirit to help us live 'right.' Not the trivial 'right' of the culture but truly set apart/holy.

Quote:Atonement, redemption. These are terms of righting a wrong. You cannot have a wrong being righted without some kind of moral code at play. This is nonsense.

No, this is not about us righting a wrong. Atonement and Redemption is about what Christ did on the cross to right a wrong. We are give these tools so we may not boast about our deeds to 'right a wrong.'

Quote:Nazi Germany? Are you seriously this desperate for attention that you would sensationalize to that extent?

I use Nazi germany as an example because even to a wicked soceity they stand out as still being evil. It's a way for the wicked to see evil, even though they have adopted much of it for themselves.

Quote:Show me the showers disguised as gas chambers.

I've given a words to search on youtube where doctors take viable Babies and suck their brains out. A gas chamber disguised as a shower is Human brutality pretending to be a basic human right. Partial birth abortion is Human brutality on it's most sinster scale disguised as a basic human right.

That is the problem with people like you. you need a 1:1 correlative ratio to compare societal evil. Because we do not employ the same exact tactics and tools the Nazi's use or 19th slave owners use Things like human brutality does not exist! If you were to take the act of sucking the brain out of a viable baby and looked at nothing else, and were ask to judge the act, how would you judge it? Is this a moral act? Now ask yourself If a random person was scooping up 3rd trimester women and performing this act on unwilling mothers, how would you judge that man? Now, change the mother's mind and now this VERY SAME ACT becomes moral?!?!?

The act does not change. The fully developed baby still feels the pain, fear, and terror no matter what the mother decides, yet to you to society this is a moral act.

Explain to me how this is any different than the gas chambers of Nazi Germany. You can't cite numbers because since 1972 we have killed more babies than Germany killed jews.

ALL USING THE SAME BASIC FORMAT! We put our evil brutality out as a basic human right, and as a result a dehumanized portion of the population is turned into fodder for our medical incinerators.

Quote: Show me the concentration camps.

we call them refugee camps. do you really need me to google them for you?
Again you've allowed yourself to be fooled by marketing. Just because we do not use the same terminology does not mean we do not have them or use them for the same purpose.
(don't confuse a concentration camp for a death camp. lots of history buff wantobes think they are the same)

Quote:Show me the genocide.

If you didn't know genocide was not the initial goal for the germans, they had to progress to that end. it was the "final solution" for the Jewish problem. Concentration camps, work camps the ghettos, were all purposed 'solutions'. Without looking it up I believe it wasn't till 1940/1 did the Germans decide to start with the death camps/genocide.

We are still in the concentration camp phase, but headed too the same 'final solution' in a rocket ship. we are one world leader assassination or one maybe two Major Western city dirty bomb/nuke away from dehumanizing 'all radical Muslims.'

Quote:Its bad enough you're resorting to scattershot.

what is bad is you can not see the world around you for what it is. You are not willing to look at our actions to define your 'right and wrong. You always justify with intention, and motive.

Quote: Do you *really* have to add the shameless invoking of atrocities at the drop of a hat to the list of offences? Yes, capitalism is a shitty, morally bankrupt system and its a damn shame we haven't come up with a better one but Nazi Germany? What next? Stalinist Russia? Maybe you would like to invoke Pol Pot or Kim Jong Il while you're at it? Have some self-respect.

Please.. I have listed out several times acts that would make the nazi's blush that this soceity accepts with out question. One for it's own brutality and two for our unwillingness to call a spade a spade, to pretend that we are better because we have lied to ourselves for so long we can no longer tell the truth.

Quote:Do not presume what I can fathom, I would ask you to look at your lack of questions. If freedom isn't meant for doing what I want then it isn't freedom. Its a longer leash.

So do you enjoy this totally independent freedom where you live? or are their rules that govern what you can and can not do with your freedoms? or do you live on a longer leash?

That said God makes no bones about our new role or our old one. we are either slaves to Sin or we are slaves to God. Jesus said if we belong to Him His burden is easy and our load will be light. Meaning in this case we are free from the law.

Quote:Oh so I can make an assumption on that? Sorry, what with me making an assumption that you thought an interpretation being right or wrong actually mattered I just didn't want to make the same mistake.

no offense intended i just want you to see the logic behind the answer.

Quote:By this logic right and wrong cease to have meaning. There are serial killers out there who fit the description of righteousness you provide. As long as they make the effort and truly believe they get in, regardless of their deeds. If they're The Big Labowski they go to hell. Its just silly.

But that's the thing... how can you say one sin is greater or less than the other? Just because one sin effects you less from a physical perspective does it indeed make less of a sin? From an eternal perspective death is nothing. Death no matter how we die is ultimately our birth into eternity, Death or how we die does not effect the soul. Yet something as trivial as lies and gossip can poison a soul and embitter a person resulting in their eternal separation from God.

Now from an eternal perspective which one of the sinners you described has a greater chance of destroying someone forever/Which one has the greatest chance of committing the bigger wrong against someone else. The one who ended a life, or the one who poisoned a soul and destroyed that soul's place with God?

Your sense of right and wrong is all backwards. You worry and center everything around here and now. Not giving thought to what is still to come.

Quote:We're the 1 talent guys? According to who Drich? I thought you couldn't make any judgments.

You are the 1 talent guy because where God actually gave you one talent or 10 you've burried what he has given you. (You are not using what he has given for his glory.) The story is not about how much the servants were given but what they did with what they were given. Stop looking to be offended, and maybe you will stop seeing offence in what I am trying to share with you.

Quote:If you're not looking for an abortion debate I would advise you not to bring that sort of inflammatory nonsense into the discussion.
Of course it *looks* like that. If you go into a car factory and look at the early construction of a chassis what exactly are you expecting to see? It means nothing. "Could have?" Based on what? Going to take a wild guess here; based on how they looked and how that made you feel.
Why am I even humoring this? This is just another attempt to muddy the waters and dilute the subject.

third trimester is not the planning stage of car construction, The build is complete and the car is waiting to be delivered.

Quote:Do I seriously have to go google every single passage where he orders the death of women and children? Do I need to bring up the Amelekites? Do I need to stress the fact *you* believe hes omnipotent, all knowing and set into motion all of creation and therefore bares ultimate responsibility for children killed by famine, disease and natural disasters that free will could not possibly play a role in? Are you seriously, after this long, not getting that basic of a premise. Stop wasting my time.
This is shameless scattershot specifically created to divert my attention and drain my energy.

So what a million? 10 million?? 100 Million? a billion In the WHole bible that spans 4 or 5000 years??
how about 1.4 billion since 1980. In just 36 years we have more than likely doubled/quadrupled All of the infant deaths that anyone could ever attribute to God, and yet Idiots claim god is a monster because he kills babies...
This is what Jesus meant by take the friggen plank out of your eye before you worry about the speck in the eye of your neighbor.
http://www.numberofabortions.com/
You keep calling me shameless... what's actually shameful is you appealing to my modesty when you do not want to look at immoral truths of pop culture/morality that would force you to reconsile the propaganda you have adopted that affords you the level of self righteousness you lord over everyone and every thing that challenges your 'moral security.'

That sport is shame full or rather you should be ashamed of hiding from the truth just because it challenges your 'moral foundation.'

A 'moral foundation' that you yourself can not live up to. a 'moral foundation' that you will be judged by, and be found wanting.

Yeah, I guess I'd be trying to shut down the conversation too if someone hit a never that close to home. I'd call everything they believe into question and I would try and shame them off topic as well.

Nice try, but no. the facts remain, and if you don't like talking about them then i suggest that you find someone else to try and defend you morality to them. Maybe they will let you manipulate the topic so you are not faced with a hard reality to answer for.

Quote:Right, except we don't know what rules Christ is judging people by except that we have to believe in him and we need to "try our best" regardless of what we're doing. According to you. Yeah. Totally a sound basis for a moral compass. Well done.

What are you talking about? We are judged against the Law that was given to moses.
Then Christ in Mat 5 extended the law to include thought. So the whole Law.
Plus sinful thoughts that break that law.

Quote:So. To conclude; you don't know Gods morality so you've taken an "educated" guess based on the writings of people from thousands of years ago who didn't know how electricity worked much less the universe and you encourage other people to take guesses based on similar books and form the entire basis for living their lives based on said guesses. This is how we should form our moral compass and govern our society regardless of how our moral compasses derived from age of enlightenment values may conflict.
Well, I'm convinced. Gods Communication Skills 1 - 21st Century Society 0

If you don't want me to use the roflol emoji then why say stupid stuff like this? Do you still not understand it's not about 'morality?' It seemed like you were getting it in the beginning, and then you went back and defaulted to arguing against a catholic priest.

Again, God has given us the freedom to 'create morality' based on what we understand/can fathom his wants to be.

Do you understand that sentence? Their is no limit once you become Christian. If you need to be catholic and that is what you understand of God, and can ever understand of God, then you must follow the catholic set of rules. However if you don't need to live that way, and can serve God with all you 'talents' another way then to you being catholic is the same as burying your talents and will be punished for their misuse.

Can you fathom what this means? It means God does not demand we all be made to understand everything He has decreed. He just wants you to do your best with what you have. In that sense God does not need to communicate this to everyone. The only thing that people need to understand is to be devoute to their understanding of the Jesus Christ centered religion of choice. To which All do understand. So God's communication skills from the 1st to the 21st century 100% (because again we all understand that our religions are the only way to heaven no matter how different they are)