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The God Delusion does a great job and deconstructing the arguments for god and proposing arguments against.
When you're done with that, try god is Not Great by Christopher Hitchens. It's a little more of a polemic, but Hitch was freaking amazing.
"There remain four irreducible objections to religious faith: that it wholly misrepresents the origins of man and the cosmos, that because of this original error it manages to combine the maximum servility with the maximum of solipsism, that it is both the result and the cause of dangerous sexual repression, and that it is ultimately grounded on wish-thinking." ~Christopher Hitchens, god is not Great
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February 10, 2016 at 5:20 am (This post was last modified: February 10, 2016 at 5:24 am by Socratic Meth Head.)
(February 10, 2016 at 5:14 am)SteelCurtain Wrote: The God Delusion does a great job and deconstructing the arguments for god and proposing arguments against.
When you're done with that, try god is Not Great by Christopher Hitchens. It's a little more of a polemic, but Hitch was freaking amazing.
Thanks for the suggestion, i'll be sure to look into it.
(February 10, 2016 at 5:15 am)robvalue Wrote: Maybe ask yourself if the bible seems more like:
1) Profound wisdom
2) Exactly what you'd expect from primitive people trying to explain the world around them, and where it "came from"
As I said, every reply is like a gate to relief. It seems exactly as I suspect, with primitive man not having access to the wealth of knowledge today, they would've most likely said there is a creator that made anything. That doesn't explain to me why they would create concepts of satan and sin though. Yea restricting murder, but why would they restrict things pleasurable like sex and sloth? I don't see why they would restrict things that they liked.
February 10, 2016 at 5:32 am (This post was last modified: February 10, 2016 at 5:35 am by robvalue.)
The best explanation I have heard is that it's a control mechanism. If you can make people feel shameful about things they are certain to do, or at least think about, then you can offer them the "cure". It's a way of breaking people down so they need you, to keep them in the religion, and most importantly keeping them obeying.
When religion first came about, it may well have been a way of organizing society. People wouldn't have listened to some guy saying, "Don't do that!" But as soon as it's "God says don't do that!" it carries extra weight.
When you look at religion, that is one of the main features. Parents establish control over their children by indoctrinating them before they have reached the age of critical thinking. The community puts pressure on people to join their religion, and ousts them if they don't.
Satan is just a perfect scapegoat. People realized that bad things happen, and if god is responsible for everything, blame comes back to him ultimately. So instead, they created a character who could shoulder all the blame, leaving god smelling of roses.
Feel free to send me a private message.
Please visit my website here! It's got lots of information about atheism/theism and support for new atheists.
(February 10, 2016 at 5:32 am)robvalue Wrote: The best explanation I have heard is that it's a control mechanism. If you can make people feel shameful about things they are certain to do, or at least think about, then you can offer them the "cure". It's a way of breaking people down so they need you, to keep them in the religion, and most importantly keeping them obeying.
When religion first came about, it may well have been a way of organizing society. People wouldn't have listened to some guy saying, "Don't do that!" But as soon as it's "God says don't do that!" it carries extra weight.
When you look at religion, that is one of the main features. Parents establish control over their children by indoctrinating them before they have reached the age of critical thinking. The community puts pressure on people to join their religion, and ousts them if they don't.
Satan is just a perfect scapegoat. People realized that bad things happen, and if god is responsible for everything, blame comes back to him ultimately. So instead, they created a character who could shoulder all the blame, leaving god smelling of roses
I've never heard that one, but it seems very reasonable.
Hey, dog!
What do you mean, your parents convince you back into belief?
If your parents are doing the work of the supposedly super-powerful deity in convincing you, then that super-powerful guy is doing nothing.... NOTHING!
What gives?
People doing the job of the super-duper guy? Ordinary human beings using words to show you how that super-guy exists??
Why doesn't that super-guy do one of his super-duper works for us all to see? According to the book, he used to do them all the time, in front of crowds... think Moses and water... what's the deal with nowadays? more people? bah... he's super-duper-powerful, the number of people in the world should have no bearing on his (in)ability to show his power to us all...
What gives, dog?
You're letting your psyche get convinced of unevidenced stuff?
You see... I have this bridge for sale, over a really nice patch of river... you can have for the low low one time offer of $10k. It's a wooden arc, all pretty with mossy trees on either side. A nice foot path to the castle up the hill. Really cool. PM me if you're interested so I can give you my bank details for you to wire the moneys.
What?! You want proof that I own that bridge?!
You want proof that the bridge exists at all?!
I'm telling you man! Would l make the bridge up? Would I add all those details about it? Would I say anything about a castle?
The river is there, the castle is there, there is even a nice european village on the other side of the river. The bridge exists to get people and goods from the village to the castle.
I'm not saying it again - one time low price offer.
And it's only for you. I've had some people around, but I didn't like how they looked, so I asked for $100k, and they left.
I'm telling you for real... this is completely true... It's a really nice bridge. I just can't keep it with me, because of a little financial problem, you see?
It's been in my family for a few generations, but now... I need the cash. That's why I'm making you such a great deal.
You will be so much happier when you have this bridge. Awesome picturesque location, you can ask people to pay a toll to cross it, it's a great place, truly I tell you, it is!
GDog: Indeed, I'm not surprised you haven't heard such explanations because those are the last things any religious person is going to tell you. They most likely haven't even realized it themselves, because they still think it's all real. They are victims, as much as you were.
Let's face it, it works really well. They have you beating yourself up over thoughts you might have about possibly being attracted to a male. That's how far this stuff can get inside your head, and make you think you're "broken" when you're nothing of the sort. If you take a step back from the situation, what's really happening? You may find a male a little bit attractive, you may not. Either way, it doesn't matter to anyone. It doesn't hurt anyone. The rest is the oral myths festering in your brain. In time, their grip will lessen. That has been my experience with everyone I've talked to who has broken out of religion.
Feel free to send me a private message.
Please visit my website here! It's got lots of information about atheism/theism and support for new atheists.
(February 10, 2016 at 6:52 am)pocaracas Wrote: You see... I have this bridge for sale, over a really nice patch of river... you can have for the low low one time offer of $10k. It's a wooden arc, all pretty with mossy trees on either side. A nice foot path to the castle up the hill. Really cool. PM me if you're interested so I can give you my bank details for you to wire the moneys.
What?! You want proof that I own that bridge?!
You want proof that the bridge exists at all?!
I'm telling you man! Would l make the bridge up? Would I add all those details about it? Would I say anything about a castle?
The river is there, the castle is there, there is even a nice european village on the other side of the river. The bridge exists to get people and goods from the village to the castle.
I'm not saying it again - one time low price offer.
And it's only for you. I've had some people around, but I didn't like how they looked, so I asked for $100k, and they left.
I'm telling you for real... this is completely true... It's a really nice bridge. I just can't keep it with me, because of a little financial problem, you see?
It's been in my family for a few generations, but now... I need the cash. That's why I'm making you such a great deal.
You will be so much happier when you have this bridge. Awesome picturesque location, you can ask people to pay a toll to cross it, it's a great place, truly I tell you, it is!
Perfect analogy. Reminds me of this video, love this video:
(February 10, 2016 at 5:14 am)SteelCurtain Wrote: The God Delusion does a great job and deconstructing the arguments for god and proposing arguments against.
When you're done with that, try god is Not Great by Christopher Hitchens. It's a little more of a polemic, but Hitch was freaking amazing.
Dawkins "God Delusion" gives us the scientific explanation as to why humans make up god claims. It is gap filling based on our species notorious flawed perceptions. In his book he describes it as "the moth mistaking the light bulb for moonlight".
Christopher Hitchens is right that religion poisons our species global political discourse. It does, there is no polite way to put it. If any one religion were pure and unified there would be no different sects and no divisions in humanity. But without exception, there has never been a single religion worldwide in our entire species history that is immune to flaws and divisions.
But I keep having to add the two following books which need to be more widely read and valued.
1. Victor Stenger "The New Atheism", which says there is no splitting the baby trying to say that religion is separate but equal. That science DOES have something to say about the "unseen". And that our species morality is in us, not our labels.
2. Victor Stenger, "God The Failed Hypothesis", also goes into the scientific reasons why that "hypothesis" does not work.
But our theist members here should never read this and take that as a call to use force to end religion. There is no utopia, not even for atheists. Not even "atheist" is a moral code. These books are important as a challenge to give up on bad claims and the willingness to question without fear.
