(February 12, 2016 at 4:48 pm)The_Empress Wrote: I don't know about others, but I do extremely little to support your definition of "slavery", Drich, and in fact, I rail against it.

I buy local produce at farmer's markets, where I meet the actual people who grow it.

I wear Saucony brand tennis shoes, which are made in the US. I haven't owned a pair of Nikes or other shitty brands since I began working when I was fourteen.

My last J-O-B was supply-chain manager for a designer shoe company whose practices I was extremely close to and couldn't condone. I planned on quitting that job the actual day I got laid off so I didn't have to quit. We were acquired by a company who owned a few other shitty brands and some of them have now gone under.

For my own business, I only bought American brands and things that were made in the US.

The job I'm about to start is for a not-for-profit to benefit developmentally disabled adults (not retards or mongrels, you slimy fucker) teaching them how to make things with which they can make an income locally.

I actively protest and vote against unfair labor practices.

I will admit it's not perfect, and, yes, we are stuck with brands that don't use fair practices (like most electronics brands), but I always have my finger on the pulse of what's going on in that arena, and use products that are most fair; people like me and others who are actively against these things will eventually change them. The bubble will burst, no doubt in my mind.

I absolutely do not condone slavery, whether it's your dubious definition or the real one, Drich, and the fact that you are so insistent that everyone does condone it says way more about you and your shitty Godwin argument than anyone else.

Well at least you in all your hippy-ness do indeed see and confirm the problem. Good for you.

Now if you could only go off grid and completely sever your dependence on slave provided goods you could actually/rightfully be self-righteous about your 'morality.'  Because Textiles and food products only maybe scratch 1/3 of the surface of the problem. Industry Raw materials (Steel, Lithium, copper, rubber, plastics) and their production is what provides you with the modern life style you still live. Ever own a car? Ever use electricity? Again, My point was to say that we ALL COMPLETELY DEPEND on Modern slavery like it or not.

But, even if you did and found away for you and everyone else in the western world to live without slave made goods... What happens to the other 2/3rds population of the world who depend on those slave jobs to eek out a living? Does your self righteousness demand that those people starve to death just because you need to pretend to be 'living better/more moral' than your great x4 Grandmother did?

Can you see How slavery could not 'all bad?'

IF you were actually worried about those people making your products and went to those third world nations where these materials are source or assembled and asked them about their jobs. you would see many if not all to be very glad to have their jobs. Many wait months if not years to get a factory job. It is not only a source of pride but often time the only source of consistent revenue some people have access to. If this is all someone has who are you to take it?

This issue is far more complex than 'all slavery=bad.' How else can one feed 5 billion people spread out over an entire planet? are your micro farmers and hippy cobblers going to provide all food and goods for 5 billion people (2/3 of the worlds population?) even if they could would they themselves not be slaves?

Drich:

I really wish you were a better person.

Believe in God all you want, be Christian all you want, but please be a better person, please don't be bigoted and homophobic and just be decent to people rather than mock them.

Drich Wrote:In that slavery is not morally a good or a bad thing. it is just how some people have to live.

How can you think that? That's truly despicable. Slavery is about as immoral as you can get.

(February 13, 2016 at 11:30 am)Drich Wrote: How else can one feed 5 billion people spread out over an entire planet? are your micro farmers and hippy cobblers going to provide all food and goods for 5 billion people (2/3 of the worlds population?) even if they could would they themselves not be slaves?

The very rich certainly can. Have you thought about that?

(February 13, 2016 at 11:37 am)Irrational Wrote:

(February 13, 2016 at 11:30 am)Drich Wrote: How else can one feed 5 billion people spread out over an entire planet? are your micro farmers and hippy cobblers going to provide all food and goods for 5 billion people (2/3 of the worlds population?) even if they could would they themselves not be slaves?

The very rich certainly can. Have you thought about that?

I see where you are going with this. The Vatican is rich enough to feed the world. The flaw in your reasoning is that they have been financially crippled by all the hush money they've given away to molestation victims.

(February 13, 2016 at 11:04 am)Drich Wrote:

(February 12, 2016 at 5:55 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote:

Oh the irony.

see above post

The bible speaks of chattel slavery. To equate it with wage slavery is dishonest. Wage slavery may be an undesirable situation, but it is better than having no work at all, or being a chattel slave. The irony is that because the dictionary includes a lesser definition of slavery, you want to equivocate on the difference between the two. The slavery taught in the bible and the 'slavery' you are referring to are not the same thing. Take your pettifogging nonsense and shove it.

-and it wouldn't matter anyway, despite Drich's ham-fisted attempts to smear anyone who doesn't believe what he believes, because we also disdain "wage slavery" and work to eliminate it.

(February 13, 2016 at 11:30 am)Drich Wrote:

(February 12, 2016 at 4:48 pm)The_Empress Wrote: I don't know about others, but I do extremely little to support your definition of "slavery", Drich, and in fact, I rail against it.

I buy local produce at farmer's markets, where I meet the actual people who grow it.

I wear Saucony brand tennis shoes, which are made in the US. I haven't owned a pair of Nikes or other shitty brands since I began working when I was fourteen.

My last J-O-B was supply-chain manager for a designer shoe company whose practices I was extremely close to and couldn't condone. I planned on quitting that job the actual day I got laid off so I didn't have to quit. We were acquired by a company who owned a few other shitty brands and some of them have now gone under.

For my own business, I only bought American brands and things that were made in the US.

The job I'm about to start is for a not-for-profit to benefit developmentally disabled adults (not retards or mongrels, you slimy fucker) teaching them how to make things with which they can make an income locally.

I actively protest and vote against unfair labor practices.

I will admit it's not perfect, and, yes, we are stuck with brands that don't use fair practices (like most electronics brands), but I always have my finger on the pulse of what's going on in that arena, and use products that are most fair; people like me and others who are actively against these things will eventually change them. The bubble will burst, no doubt in my mind.

I absolutely do not condone slavery, whether it's your dubious definition or the real one, Drich, and the fact that you are so insistent that everyone does condone it says way more about you and your shitty Godwin argument than anyone else.

Well at least you in all your hippy-ness do indeed see and confirm the problem. Good for you.

Huh. I thought it wasn't actually a problem, Drich.

Quote:Now if you could only go off grid and completely sever your dependence on slave provided goods you could actually/rightfully be self-righteous about your 'morality.' 

Fuck you. You are such a dickhead. Stop projecting your own self-righteousness, you vile prick.

Quote:Because Textiles and food products only maybe scratch 1/3 of the surface of the problem. Industry Raw materials (Steel, Lithium, copper, rubber, plastics) and their production is what provides you with the modern life style you still live. Ever own a car? Ever use electricity? Again, My point was to say that we ALL COMPLETELY DEPEND on Modern slavery like it or not.

I actually don't own a car and I get around on my American-made bike. I use as much solar as possible, and I was just last night talking about my plan to outfit my own future house with solar panels.

Quote:But, even if you did and found away for you and everyone else in the western world to live without slave made goods... What happens to the other 2/3rds population of the world who depend on those slave jobs to eek out a living? Does your self righteousness demand that those people starve to death just because you need to pretend to be 'living better/more moral' than your great x4 Grandmother did?

Straw men impress no one, and "pretending" is not my thing. I do better for this world and I encourage others to do the same.

Quote:Can you see How slavery could not 'all bad?'

You should really read and edit before posting. That sentence makes no sense.

Quote:IF you were actually worried about those people making your products and went to those third world nations where these materials are source or assembled and asked them about their jobs. you would see many if not all to be very glad to have their jobs. Many wait months if not years to get a factory job. It is not only a source of pride but often time the only source of consistent revenue some people have access to. If this is all someone has who are you to take it?

I was in direct contact with a lot of "those people" for years. I had many conversations with "those people" and even went to their factories. None of them were happy, and I ultimately decided to quit my job when my favorite rep called me on Christmas Eve, crying because they hadn't finished manufacturing an "important" order for us and she wasn't going to be able to go home... and she hadn't been home in three years.

Quote:This issue is far more complex than 'all slavery=bad.' How else can one feed 5 billion people spread out over an entire planet? are your micro farmers and hippy cobblers going to provide all food and goods for 5 billion people (2/3 of the worlds population?) even if they could would they themselves not be slaves?

I'm very close to having an important investment pay off, which will yield me enough money to start the charitable foundations I've been brainstorming for years. One of them is going to be focused on feeding people who need to be fed. If everyone who had access to an extra buck did so, there wouldn't be hunger.

Again, I'm actually doing something about this stuff. You can call me self-righteous all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that I actively rail against unfair labor practices and I'm hoping to make a difference.

I'm not sure why your vile nature continues to surprise me.

(February 13, 2016 at 11:58 am)Jörmungandr Wrote:

(February 13, 2016 at 11:04 am)Drich Wrote: see above post

The bible speaks of chattel slavery.  To equate it with wage slavery is dishonest.  Wage slavery may be an undesirable situation, but it is better than having no work at all, or being a chattel slave.  The irony is that because the dictionary includes a lesser definition of slavery, you want to equivocate on the difference between the two.  The slavery taught in the bible and the 'slavery' you are referring to are not the same thing.  Take your pettifogging nonsense and shove it.

What the dictionary includes is the colloquial use, which is different from its literal definition in the context of this conversation. When Britney Spears sang "I'm a slave for you", I don't think she referred to the literal definition of slavery, but the one you're trying to shoehorn in, here.

A slave is a person literally owned as property  by the other person. Wage slavery, while often cruel, is not the same thing. If you'd like to see what modern day "slavery" looks like (and I'm actually with Drich that it exists and is the moral equivalent of the real thing), consider the following:

Real slavery does continue to exist, both in the United States and elsewhere. One is the prisoners of many states, in which they are forced to work, even in cotton fields, for as little as $10 a month (no, that's not a typo!), just enough to buy toothpaste and shampoo. A little-known fact is that the 13th amendment did not ban slavery entirely: Amendment XIII, Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

That bolded bit is, according to sociologists I've read and spoken to on the subject, a huge part of the reason our modern court system has become so eroded and racially skewed, and minorities are vastly over-represented in the prisons of this nation. In the Jim Crow era, in the South and Midwest, it was a way to continue effective slavery conditions in defiance of the federal government's passage of the amendment; it has morphed over time into the modern chimera that is our "Justice" System.

There's the abusive type of employment, which can often stretch to the point which I would refer to it as slavery, and again it's in the United States while everyone looks the other way and enjoys their cheap fruits/veggies at the supermarket. If you haven't seen the movie Cesar Chavez, which came out in 2014, I highly recommend it. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1621046/

The other and more commonly referred to version is sex slavery, which frankly I blame on religious types who have made prostitution an illegal and thus hidden thing upon which those types of predators may (and do) prey, in the dark.

http://traffickingresourcecenter.org/

But all of this is beside the point, Mr. "Bible-Based Christian". Your Bible specifically, in those words, encourages chattel slavery (not the kind you are redefining here), making me more than a little bit skeptical of your claim that any sort of transcendent morality is to be found in the book:

Leviticus 25 Wrote:44 "Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly."

(I used the NIV, but I can happily change that to your favorite translation, if you'll divulge what version that might be.)

(February 13, 2016 at 12:12 pm)Rhythm Wrote: -and it wouldn't matter anyway, despite Drich's ham-fisted attempts to smear anyone who doesn't believe what he believes, because we also disdain "wage slavery" and work to eliminate it.

Yeah, that's the part I really don't get with him.

We know what wage slavery is.  We find it immoral and do what we can to eliminate it.  Yet, somehow, we're bad because we live in Western civilization (just like him), even though we acknowledge wage slavery, how inhumane it can be, etc.

But he's somehow more moral than the rest of us because he simply doesn't sweat it because it's part of god's rules.

Amazing.  And frightening.

(February 13, 2016 at 2:09 pm)KevinM1 Wrote:

(February 13, 2016 at 12:12 pm)Rhythm Wrote: -and it wouldn't matter anyway, despite Drich's ham-fisted attempts to smear anyone who doesn't believe what he believes, because we also disdain "wage slavery" and work to eliminate it.

Yeah, that's the part I really don't get with him.

We know what wage slavery is.  We find it immoral and do what we can to eliminate it.  Yet, somehow, we're bad because we live in Western civilization (just like him), even though we acknowledge wage slavery, how inhumane it can be, etc.

But he's somehow more moral than the rest of us because he simply doesn't sweat it because it's part of god's rules.

Amazing.  And frightening.

No, no, Kevin. You don't get it: morals aren't righteousness and therefore, we are horrible, awful people since we can never live up to God's righteous standards because... something.

Fuck. I don't know either. All I know is that if I'm immoral or unrighteous by Drich's or his god's standards, I'm perfectly content with being a self-righteous hippie.