(March 29, 2016 at 1:42 am)Won2blv Wrote:

(March 27, 2016 at 12:34 pm)Redbeard The Pink Wrote: You're not even pretending to have a crisis of belief any more. That didn't take long.


I'd tend to agree that Jesus was not God (if he existed at all), but I think we probably have different reasoning.

Are you saying that I have gotten over my crisis? Or that my crisis was some kind of red herring?

Could be either, I suppose.


Personally, I'm not convinced of god's existence by a vague prophecy about magic statue feet. If you have a specific, accurate, demonstrable prediction from some kind of scripture, then present it. If a prophecy has to be interpreted, it's practically useless because it could be interpreted to mean just about anything.

(March 30, 2016 at 12:57 am)Redbeard The Pink Wrote:

(March 29, 2016 at 1:42 am)Won2blv Wrote: Are you saying that I have gotten over my crisis? Or that my crisis was some kind of red herring?

Could be either, I suppose.


Personally, I'm not convinced of god's existence by a vague prophecy about magic statue feet. If you have a specific, accurate, demonstrable prediction from some kind of scripture, then present it. If a prophecy has to be interpreted, it's practically useless because it could be interpreted to mean just about anything.

I am not saying that this is something that it making me hang onto believing in god. It is much more that I find it intriguing and I"m looking for a rational way to view it. I don't believe I ever had faith in god because of one specific thing. It was more of a composite picture. I truly want to believe in god, I just know that its probably unlikely. So, I want to deconstruct the things that still linger in my mind. This means that'll I'll present arguments to posts that I believe insufficiently address my issue

(March 29, 2016 at 11:26 pm)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote:

(March 24, 2016 at 6:45 am)Won2blv Wrote:

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I would never join a religion like baptist. If I did believe in the god of the bible I know he would not approve of people adopting pagan religious customs into their religion. I know that he wouldn't support his people getting involved in political affairs of mankind. I know that Jesus is not god, but his son. I am still proud of JW's in a lot of areas, even if no one on this forum gives them any credit.

And for every one else that dogs religions as being equally as bad

JW's called out religions as a snare over a 100 years ago before it was cool

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JW's stay neutral in all political affairs, which means that they aren't trying to push their religious policies into your life through legislation

Of course they aren't perfect and there is the bullshit. But I am not trying to get out of my indoctrination by just having people tell me that all religion is bullshit so you're an idiot if you believe one word of the bible. Even the atheist bible, the skeptics annotated bible, has a section for "good stuff." So my op is simply on the fact that the statues feet simply describes a political world that we live in. I find it interesting that a guy 2500 years ago predicted a government that was ruled by the common people.

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Quote:Before I give up on this thread, does anyone have any point or comment concerning that?

The good news is that if the JWs are true believers then their violent deaths made them martyrs and added to the total that need to be killed before Jesus returns.  OTOH, if they aren't true believers then their violent deaths had no meaning and they were simply killed for being a big pain in the ass.  In any case the number killed was insufficent to reach the magic number to get Jesus to show up.  Someone has to kill more believers.  It's biblical. (Revelation 6:9-11).  Gotta reach that magic number sooner or later.

I don't care if you believe in god or not. JW's walked the walk. They weren't like many other citizens that idly stood by as atrocities were taking place. So, god or no god, every life taken was not in vain and stood for something. I would be more proud to have been thrown into a concentration camp just for being a pain in the ass to Hitler than minding my own business and taking sides with whoever has the biggest stick.

(March 30, 2016 at 6:13 am)Won2blv Wrote:

(March 30, 2016 at 12:57 am)Redbeard The Pink Wrote: Could be either, I suppose.


Personally, I'm not convinced of god's existence by a vague prophecy about magic statue feet. If you have a specific, accurate, demonstrable prediction from some kind of scripture, then present it. If a prophecy has to be interpreted, it's practically useless because it could be interpreted to mean just about anything.

I am not saying that this is something that it making me hang onto believing in god. It is much more that I find it intriguing and I"m looking for a rational way to view it. I don't believe I ever had faith in god because of one specific thing. It was more of a composite picture. I truly want to believe in god, I just know that its probably unlikely. So, I want to deconstruct the things that still linger in my mind. This means that'll I'll present arguments to posts that I believe insufficiently address my issue

Why are you looking for a rational way to view a 2600 year old fantasy?  You say you want to deconstruct these things that still linger, but apparently when a member here tries to help with that deconstruction, your responses seem angry.  You clearly want to hang on to the Bible as "holy", whatever the hell that means.  Well, here's my rational viewpoint about that description of a statue - it's meaningless.

The fulfillment of the prophecies of Daniel are found in the time Daniel was written, which seems to clearly post-date most of his prophecies. That alone is good reason to discount the statue prophecy in Daniel.

(March 30, 2016 at 10:12 am)drfuzzy Wrote:

(March 30, 2016 at 6:13 am)Won2blv Wrote: I am not saying that this is something that it making me hang onto believing in god. It is much more that I find it intriguing and I"m looking for a rational way to view it. I don't believe I ever had faith in god because of one specific thing. It was more of a composite picture. I truly want to believe in god, I just know that its probably unlikely. So, I want to deconstruct the things that still linger in my mind. This means that'll I'll present arguments to posts that I believe insufficiently address my issue

Why are you looking for a rational way to view a 2600 year old fantasy?  You say you want to deconstruct these things that still linger, but apparently when a member here tries to help with that deconstruction, your responses seem angry.  You clearly want to hang on to the Bible as "holy", whatever the hell that means.  Well, here's my rational viewpoint about that description of a statue - it's meaningless.

What I meant was that I am looking for a rational way to view what looks like the fulfillment of that prophecy. I should have clarified that... I am sorry I sound angry, is it the all caps and exclamation points? I just want good answers, not general ones. For example, just saying its meaningless is not a good one. It just a rash statement based on an opinion.

(March 30, 2016 at 10:27 pm)Won2blv Wrote:

(March 30, 2016 at 10:12 am)drfuzzy Wrote: Why are you looking for a rational way to view a 2600 year old fantasy?  You say you want to deconstruct these things that still linger, but apparently when a member here tries to help with that deconstruction, your responses seem angry.  You clearly want to hang on to the Bible as "holy", whatever the hell that means.  Well, here's my rational viewpoint about that description of a statue - it's meaningless.

What I meant was that I am looking for a rational way to view what looks like the fulfillment of that prophecy. I should have clarified that... I am sorry I sound angry, is it the all caps and exclamation points? I just want good answers, not general ones. For example, just saying its meaningless is not a good one. It just a rash statement based on an opinion.

The most rational explanation I can come up with is that your brain is evolved to find patterns and assign meaning to things, and your religious upbringing has you convinced that if you can force-fit a Bible passage to maybe vaguely describe something that happened later, that means the passage was a prediction about the future.


In short, your mind is conditioned to make meaning of things where there is none. Mine used to do it, too. I used to think the Bible contained predictions about discoveries in quantum mechanics and shit. It's really just an attempt by your brain to bring what you want to believe in line with what you actually believe about reality.

Exactly. If you hadn't been raised to think this book was somehow magic, you'd dismiss this "prophecy" entirely out of hand as a joke (in my opinion). You'd no more take anything it has to say seriously than you would Lord of the Rings. You'd pick it up off the shelf, and class it as fiction almost immediately.

As Jorm pointed out, the prophecies tend to come true within the very same narrative, they're not even talking about the future. They're literary devices, and are often just trying to explain what had already happened at the time of writing into a way that makes the victors sound more respectable. People now try and retrofit events to these "prophecies" regardless, pretending they had something amazing to say. They didn't. It's part of a story taken out of context. It may as well be Harry Potter talking about an evil statue he will face later in the book or something.

This is the rational explanation.

(March 30, 2016 at 6:26 am)Won2blv Wrote:

(March 29, 2016 at 11:26 pm)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote: The good news is that if the JWs are true believers then their violent deaths made them martyrs and added to the total that need to be killed before Jesus returns.  OTOH, if they aren't true believers then their violent deaths had no meaning and they were simply killed for being a big pain in the ass.  In any case the number killed was insufficent to reach the magic number to get Jesus to show up.  Someone has to kill more believers.  It's biblical. (Revelation 6:9-11).  Gotta reach that magic number sooner or later.

I don't care if you believe in god or not. JW's walked the walk. They weren't like many other citizens that idly stood by as atrocities were taking place. So, god or no god, every life taken was not in vain and stood for something. I would be more proud to have been thrown into a concentration camp just for being a pain in the ass to Hitler than minding my own business and taking sides with whoever has the biggest stick.

Even the Bible says that a living dog is better off than a dead lion.  Who remembers the dead?  They are forgotten.

Ecclesiastes 9:4-6 (MSG) = "Still, anyone selected out for life has hope, for, as they say, “A living dog is better than a dead lion.” The living at least know something, even if it’s only that they’re going to die. But the dead know nothing and get nothing. They’re a minus that no one remembers. Their loves, their hates, yes, even their dreams, are long gone. There’s not a trace of them left in the affairs of this earth."

If the dummies had actually fought they would have made a difference.  They died for nothing except for their own stupidity.

(March 31, 2016 at 4:37 am)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote:

(March 30, 2016 at 6:26 am)Won2blv Wrote: I don't care if you believe in god or not. JW's walked the walk. They weren't like many other citizens that idly stood by as atrocities were taking place. So, god or no god, every life taken was not in vain and stood for something. I would be more proud to have been thrown into a concentration camp just for being a pain in the ass to Hitler than minding my own business and taking sides with whoever has the biggest stick.

Even the Bible says that a living dog is better off than a dead lion.  Who remembers the dead?  They are forgotten.

Ecclesiastes 9:4-6 (MSG) = "Still, anyone selected out for life has hope, for, as they say, “A living dog is better than a dead lion.” The living at least know something, even if it’s only that they’re going to die. But the dead know nothing and get nothing. They’re a minus that no one remembers. Their loves, their hates, yes, even their dreams, are long gone. There’s not a trace of them left in the affairs of this earth."

If the dummies had actually fought they would have made a difference.  They died for nothing except for their own stupidity.

So you don't think there is anything worth dying for?