(June 15, 2016 at 10:04 pm)Thomas Kelly252525 Wrote:

(June 15, 2016 at 9:48 pm)Losty Wrote: If one was being murdered in front of me I would try to stop it. If anyone ever was being murdered in front of me I would try to stop it. Period. Anyone who would stand by and watch a murder is morally bankrupt.

Losty,


You may think that in the story of Jesus it was his choice die for the benefit of all mankind and that in the story he rose from the dead to live forever after momentary suffering in comparison.

Do you think a parent of a child should be willing to die for the sake of that child if in danger ?

But why couldn't your god negate the danger without the sacrifice?

Why not just forgive humanity without torturing his son (which is also himself)?

Was he unable to do so?

Yeah, I'd say so. Mostly due to nonexistence.

I wouldn't save him. If I interfere he's never going to learn not to sacrifice himself to himself.

(June 15, 2016 at 9:58 pm)Chad32 Wrote:

(June 15, 2016 at 9:12 pm)Thomas Kelly252525 Wrote: Losty,

It may be thought that what I put was part of the story of Jesus regardless of who believes or not.

Do you think in the story Jesus didn't choose to die ?

Pretty sure there's a verse saying he didn't. He was obedient, but not willing. The whole "let this cup pass from me" verse.

Chad32,

You might consider that in the story he was expressing his humanity by what he said as evidence he was going through what a human may go through in such circumstances, not wanting to suffer but willing to do what was necessary for the sake of what God wanted for the benefit of mankind.

(June 15, 2016 at 9:40 pm)Simon Moon Wrote:

(June 15, 2016 at 9:22 pm)Godschild Wrote:  Here the atheist go again assuming they can do something like go back in time. That's one reason I find most unreliable in what they say, they want to pretend instead of dealing with the facts, this pretending stuff sounds most illogical. Those who answered they would do something are just spouting off like their something, you would have coward at the knees of the Romans like everyone else except Jesus. He accepted the Father's plan and carried it to the very end and beginning.

GC

Okay. So there is no time travel involved.

You are there, and you have a chance to successfully stop Jesus from being horribly tortured. Would you?

It's a f'n thought experiment. 

Are you that unable to imagine the scenario?

 I can imagine the scenario, it's just that whatever I answered wouldn't change what happened. God the Father would not have allowed it, this was his ultimate will that no one could change, his love for us is omnipotent. Jesus himself couldn't have stopped it because He is God and like minded with the Father and Holy Spirit and thus followed the will of the Father willfully. Like I said no one here would have attempted to stop it either, the Romans would have seen to that, there was a great crowd of Jews stirred up that would have taken anyone to the side who tried to stop it and convince them to try it would not be good for them. So you see why I believe the question to be just silly. I've heard Christians answer this very question in Bible discussions and they all said they wouldn't have stopped it because they wouldn't have the salvation Jesus desired for all who would accept it.

GC

(June 15, 2016 at 10:30 pm)Thomas Kelly252525 Wrote:

(June 15, 2016 at 9:58 pm)Chad32 Wrote: Pretty sure there's a verse saying he didn't. He was obedient, but not willing. The whole "let this cup pass from me" verse.

Chad32,

You might consider that in the story he was expressing his humanity by what he said as evidence he was going through what a human may go through in such circumstances, not wanting to suffer but willing to do what was necessary for the sake of what God wanted for the benefit of mankind.

Yes, it is in Human nature to not want to be killed horribly. It's pretty gross and sad that blood and suffering is needed to put this god in a good enough mood to not inflict pain on the entirety of humanity, but I guess that's what happens when people in charge have no checks and balances.

(June 15, 2016 at 10:06 pm)Losty Wrote:

(June 15, 2016 at 10:04 pm)Thomas Kelly252525 Wrote: Losty,


You may think that in the story of Jesus it was his choice die for the benefit of all mankind and that in the story he rose from the dead to live forever after momentary suffering in comparison.

Do you think a parent of a child should be willing to die for the sake of that child if in danger ?

Do you think a parent should allow his child to suffer and be murdered to stop said parent from eternally torturing everyone ever? Do you think that's good parenting?

You might think the teaching is that people may choose to disobey God and they are due punishment because of it and that Jesus sacrifice was to help people avoid the punishment.

(June 15, 2016 at 10:48 pm)Thomas Kelly252525 Wrote: You might think the teaching is that people may choose to disobey God and they are due punishment because of it and that Jesus sacrifice was to help people avoid the punishment.

And you don't see any problem with this?

(June 15, 2016 at 10:08 pm)Simon Moon Wrote:

(June 15, 2016 at 10:04 pm)Thomas Kelly252525 Wrote: Losty,


You may think that in the story of Jesus it was his choice die for the benefit of all mankind and that in the story he rose from the dead to live forever after momentary suffering in comparison.

Do you think a parent of a child should be willing to die for the sake of that child if in danger ?

But why couldn't your god negate the danger without the sacrifice?

Why not just forgive humanity without torturing his son (which is also himself)?

Was he unable to do so?

Simon Moon,

You might think of it as like a war in which people must die for the sake of everyone else or evil prevails.

(June 15, 2016 at 10:43 pm)Godschild Wrote:  I can imagine the scenario, it's just that whatever I answered wouldn't change what happened. God the Father would not have allowed it, this was his ultimate will that no one could change, his love for us is omnipotent.

So what are we bout here..invisible walls, mesmerism...what?  

Quote:Jesus himself couldn't have stopped it because He is God and like minded with the Father and Holy Spirit and thus followed the will of the Father willfully. Like I said no one here would have attempted to stop it either,

Yeah...sorry buddy, just because you're the kind of guy that might sit complacently in the crowd doesn't mean the rest of us are.

Quote:the Romans would have seen to that,

LOL, the romans tried to see to alot of things..where are they now?  

Quote:there was a great crowd of Jews stirred up that would have taken anyone to the side who tried to stop it and convince them to try it would not be good for them. So you see why I believe the question to be just silly. I've heard Christians answer this very question in Bible discussions and they all said they wouldn't have stopped it because they wouldn't have the salvation Jesus desired for all who would accept it.

You must mean..in all of this, that you think it would have been super hard to succeed, not that people wouldn;t try.  Well, that's what the provision for success was for in the thought experiment....don't you think? And so what if it would be really hard? We try to do really hard shit all the time, especially when we're saving peoples lives.