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RE: Christians, would you have saved Jesus, if you had he chance?
June 18, 2016 at 5:49 am
(June 16, 2016 at 11:28 pm)Disciple Wrote: Jesus didn't need saving. It was his choice to go to the cross. He could have decided at any time to call down legions of angels to turn the roman army into red mist in half a second. Or he could have done it himself. I know most of you don't believe the story, but if we are talking about going back in time to a supposed non existent event lets at least represent the story as it actually was 
"Father why hast thou forsaken me?"
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RE: Christians, would you have saved Jesus, if you had he chance?
June 18, 2016 at 5:55 am
"Me, why hast I forsaken me? Why didn't I remember to edit this out with the retcon?"
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RE: Christians, would you have saved Jesus, if you had he chance?
June 18, 2016 at 6:09 am
(June 17, 2016 at 6:38 am)pgrimes15 Wrote: I think an equally important question is - if you had the chance, would you have saved Gandalf from falling at the bridge of Khazad Dum in the mines of Moria after his confrontation with the Balrog. Bear in mind that his subsequent titanic battle with the aforementioned Balrog was instrumental in his transformation from Grey into White.
Actually I don't think the fight with the Balgrog was instrumental in Gandalf's transition. The Valar needed him to be the new white wizard an because of this they saved his life. They would have given him the new mantle and powers even if he had managed to escape Moria safely.
On the other hand the christian mythology needs Jesus to be killed in order for it to work as he has been set up as a sacrifice in order to expiate the wrongs committed by everybody else.
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RE: Christians, would you have saved Jesus, if you had he chance?
June 18, 2016 at 6:37 am
(June 17, 2016 at 10:01 am)Veritas_Vincit Wrote: Thomas I have edited my previous post, I did it on my phone and some of the text didn't come through...
In response:
I wasn't saying you aren't willing to present evidence for your claims, I am saying that so far you have not. You are welcome to, but the point is that nobody needs to disprove your claims to disbelieve them, rather they should not believe them in the first place until you can demonstrate that they are true. By all means, do so.
Actually Kelly is unwilling to provide evidence for his conjecture. I've had the displeasure of having this exact same "debate" with him and while he states that he has evidence yet he is strangely unwilling to present it. And when pressed on it, his responses quickly descend into tangenital nonsense.
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RE: Christians, would you have saved Jesus, if you had he chance?
June 18, 2016 at 7:01 am
(June 17, 2016 at 7:39 pm)Thomas Kelly252525 Wrote: (June 17, 2016 at 4:10 pm)Constable Dorfl Wrote: --Again, why would a perfect being (and god is perfect per christian doctrine) allow his divine word to be tampered with?--
The thinking is that in order for humans to grow mentally/spiritually they must learn how to protect themselves and others from evil, so God doesn't intervene every time evil happens including The Bible being corrupted. It's the only way for people to reach their potential.
You may think of it as intervention through nonintervention.
The thinking is that God has arranged for the necessary things like food, water, clothing and so on, so not completely abandoned us. If we choose to do good we grow mentally/spiritually.
You've brought up this "tampered with the word of god nonsense" a number* of times now, but have failed to give any kind of a response to my query every time I ask it of you. It is very relevant to what you are trying to establish.
Hopefully what I put above was some help to you.
--*I was going to use "couple" here, but then I realised that the Irish interpretation of couple is pretty unique.--
Acknowledged.
Constable Dorfl, you may look at my answers above.
Your answer makes no sense. You are alleging the perfect being would allow a cack handed hatchet job of his message in order to allow us become better people? Could god not create us as better people, or could he not make it that his message, unaduterated, would suffice?
Your answer just raises a larger question, why is your god so small?
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RE: Christians, would you have saved Jesus, if you had he chance?
June 18, 2016 at 7:14 am
(June 18, 2016 at 5:55 am)robvalue Wrote: "Me, why hast I forsaken me? Why didn't I remember to edit this out with the retcon?"
You = 1 person. Your person is a human nature.
The Son of God = 1 person. His person is the divine nature.
Jesus = The Son of God united to a human nature. His person is the divine nature united to a human nature.
On the cross, the human nature of the person of Jesus, while still united to the divine nature, was deprived of the consolation and experiential presence of the divine nature (as most of us humans experience all too often). Lacking the experience of this personally internal consoling presence in his human nature, Jesus cried out an expression of that internal personal reality which had already been expressed in Psalm 22.
Just my two cents anyway.
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RE: Christians, would you have saved Jesus, if you had he chance?
June 18, 2016 at 8:29 am
Oh, please.
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RE: Christians, would you have saved Jesus, if you had he chance?
June 18, 2016 at 8:42 am
(This post was last modified: June 18, 2016 at 8:48 am by robvalue.)
Erm, okay.
A bit dramatic, don't you think? God was engineering a situation where there were distinct parts of himself, feeling different things and talking to each other? And confused by each other's actions?
For whose benefit, exactly?
I think this is a giant ad-hoc hypothesis, especially since the trinity is not biblical. The much more likely and simple explanation is that jesus wasn't originally meant to be god. In fact, we already know this is the case. His divinity was decided much later. The editing in the bible is poor throughout, giving rise to very little consistency. I don't see why it's reasonable to assume this isn't just another example of that.
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RE: Christians, would you have saved Jesus, if you had he chance?
June 18, 2016 at 8:50 am
(This post was last modified: June 18, 2016 at 8:58 am by robvalue.)
In other words: let's say jesus, the man, said those words. Which is the most likely explanation:
1) He thought he was talking to god. Whether or not anyone was listening is irrelevant. But he himself was not god.
2) He actually was god, talking to another aspect of himself, which had different knowledge to him, causing him to become confused by himself.
How many assumptions do you have to make for option 2 to even be possible, let alone probable?
A) It is possible there is a god
B) There is a god
C) This man jesus was (part of) that god
D) This god can split itself into distinct entities with separate knowledge
E) This god would choose to do the above for some reason
F) This god would want people to witness part of himself talking to another part of himself, apparently confused, as if he was just a man talking to some unseen distinct entity
Assumptions required for option 1:
None.
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RE: Christians, would you have saved Jesus, if you had he chance?
June 18, 2016 at 8:53 am
(This post was last modified: June 18, 2016 at 8:54 am by The Grand Nudger.)
Jesus says that for the same reason that mel gibson shouts "freeeeeeedom" at the end of braveheart. Makes for a good story, sells popcorn.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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