MysticKnight Wrote:I've elaborated before on these. People understand and know exactly how they prove God. Playing ignorant will do you no good. I'm tired of playing games.

MK, I am disappoint.

Do you have some sort of condition that prevents you from entertaining the idea that other people can honestly find your statements unpersuasive? You made a bunch of assertions (remember I asked for your one best proof, not a pile of bad ones) which you made no attempt to back up. Yet you seem amazed that anyone would consider your personal belief assertions anything but self-evident; to the point where you accuse people of 'playing ignorant'.

Do you have anything that goes like: True Premise->Valid Reasoning->Sound Conclusion?

Asmodee, you are keen to exchange thoughts with me grounding ourselves on truths, facts, logic, and the history of ideas?

That is my impression that atheists here do not care to exchange thoughts with me at all, they just want to say something from their own whatever motive, but exchange is to my observation, impossible; for they don't continue after their first or second reaction to my efforts to develop a link with them, as to continue until we get into a concurrence on whatever we are into, in our exchange.

Dear Asmodee, see if this is not also the case at present with my reaction to your post reproduced below.

I fear you will already at this point go away.

It seems to me, that atheists here really resist any serious attempts to get them to interact with me, and then they will accuse me of trying to proselytize them when I exert further to connect with them.

You see, dear atheist readers of this post, I am here just to enjoy my hobby of knowing what atheists are into and what I am into: from my part I am curious, what about you atheists here, are you also curious to know what I am here into?

Okay, you ask me, and I will tell you, namely, that I am curious to know what you are into here in this forum and in this thread started by me.

And yes, I know God exists, and I am very curious to know how atheists come to know or whatever it is with them about denying God existing.

At this point theists here will say that they don't understand my English.

So, there, I again fail from my own fault to get linked up with an atheist here, just to satisfy my curiosity: what is driving them to post messages but to not pursue an interaction as to come to concurrence on whatever the issue is, that is taken up with them.

Now, I also notice that they will try to drive me to get annoyed terribly, and then I wind up getting banned forever,  owing to being unkind with my language.

Anyway, I have not read all the new messages this morning, I just get started from the last new post here and move to my last post prior to the present session, so I will go now to see whether Jesster, the lady poster here, she with the adage, your friendly neighborhood heathen, whether she has taken up with my invitation for us to pursue whatever it is with her to take up with me, aside from saying that I am trying to digress from whatever it was I was digressing from.

Summing up: I will just most cordially invite any atheist here at all, to let us we two, for I cannot be answering every post that is addressed to me, I am only one person, not a battalion, but there are atheists here who many of them take to react to me and then disappear, forever(?).

(October 25, 2016 at 2:05 pm)Asmodee Wrote: Mariosep, I surmise that English is not your first language, and that is okay, but it would really help the conversation if you didn't try so hard to "sound smart", using big words and stringing different concepts together.  I'm sure you're very intelligent, but your posts are a little confusing because of your attempt to sound smart.

You seem to be asking us to disprove some god which you have defined in your head but you only define as "not the God of the Bible".  But "disprove this" is not how logic works.  You could, for instance, never give me absolute proof that fairies don't exist, or gnomes, or trolls.  You can't go out and gather evidence that something doesn't exist because something that doesn't exist is not there to leave behind evidence.  Instead you have to ask for evidence that something does exist.  You can't prove non-existence.  So there is no proof,  logical or otherwise, that there are no gods, which is exactly what one would expect whether any give god(s) existed or did not exist.


Your initial post asked for our opinion on your logical "proof" of some undefined god.  The only thing you have defined about that god is that it is not the God of the Bible, yet you are quick to point out that we are wrong in any definition we give for that god.  You seem to want an intelligent conversation, yet everything you say leads away from intelligent conversation, whether it be speaking beyond your language skills, telling us that we are arguing against the wrong god when you offer no definition of which god you're talking about or, strangely, proclaiming that circular logic is natural and acceptable, which it is very much not.  Circular logic is no logic at all.

Anyway, many of us have answered your original post and told you what we found wrong with your argument.  Whether you accept our critiques or not, we have answered you.  Strangely, though, you keep changing what the conversation is supposed to be about to the point where none of us really understand what it is you actually want any more.  If you could define both the deity in question and what you expect of us in clear language you do not attempt to dress up with too much pleasantry or sophistication perhaps we can give you an answer to whatever the question is you actually want an answer to.  At this point I don't think any of us really know what the question is.

(October 25, 2016 at 4:01 pm)Mariosep Wrote: And yes, I know God exists, and I am very curious to know how atheists come to know or whatever it is with them about denying God existing.

Super simple.  Never seen one, never heard from one, don't need one....don't care if there is one.

(October 25, 2016 at 7:16 am)robvalue Wrote: Simple question, one I rarely get a satisfactory answer to:

Why should I care about any sort of God?

Any sensible definition doesn't preclude a computer programmer in a parent dimension, by the way. I don't understand the compulsion to worship it or to "talk" to it with no idea whether or not the messages are being received by it. The idea that it plans to manifest us in this parent reality after death is absurd, quite honestly. It's much more reasonable to assume it has no idea we are here at all, let alone self-aware.

I don't deny that the concept of God exists, as a concept. It's when you try and move it into reality that you will always fail. It's unfalsifiable at best; incoherent at worst.

you don't have to care.  Any more than my brother cares about the Oort cloud.  But its there.

(October 24, 2016 at 9:18 pm)Irrational Wrote: Ok, some arguments (in "prose") against the Creator God (as defined by most Christian theists):

God cannot create something out of absolute "nothing". In order for God to have created anything, there must have already been some preexisting material from which the created things were made. This means some portion of reality independent of God has always been. Conclusion: God did not create all of reality.

God cannot timelessly create. In order for God to have created, time must have already been. Conclusion: God did not create time.

God cannot timelessly exercise his mind. In order for God to have created anything (including time), he must've either exercised the divine mind to plan the creation or it was spontaneous. However, if there was no time prior to its creation, then there was no act of exercising the divine mind prior to creation (for no act can occur in the absence of time). If somehow it was possible for God to spontaneously timelessly create (hint: logically speaking, it's not possible), then God's act of creation was a spontaneous act. Conclusion: If it must be argued that God created time nevertheless, then God mindlessly created the created portion of reality.

It can be argued that, logically speaking, (1) God did not create all of reality, (2) God did not create time, and (3) even if God somehow created time, then God mindlessly created the created portion of reality. This is no different from a mindless entity that has the capacity to randomly generate things within a form of reality that's always been. Therefore, the Creator God is not logically necessary. Conclusion: God cannot exist as the Creator.

The material that God carved the universe out of was God's own body. Absolute infinite mass. Matter taking up all space forever in all direction.

So, dear colleagues here, I have gone through all the posts since I was here last, and I have not found Jesster's response to my invitation for us two one on one to take up any issue she cares to take up with me, also including the charge from her that I am 'chickening out' from the issue I was into when she got to me whatever that issue was, according to her.

See my reproduction of my last post to her when I was here last time.

Anyway, there are several atheists reacting to my posts, but when one of you will link up with me to take up an issue you want to take up with me, please let me know; otherwise it is useless because the link is not pursued to completion, i.e. up to concurrence between us two, or on also if need be, concurrence that we have come to any impasse, and also with the concurrence that there is an impasse because both parties have their reasons and neither side would concede, so there is an impasse.

Dear atheists here, you will also say that you have no time to pursue the issue taken up, and that is just too bad; best then, next time let you make it a point that you will always have time even at a later session to continue with me, of course telling me that you will be unavailable until a certain date and time when you will take up with me as to resume our interaction - of course in the meantime you are still posting here, and I could be waiting forever and ever.

Anyway, let me see when an atheist will take up with me an issue he cares to take up with me, but then atheists will say that they don't have the burden to prove anything, etc., etc., etc.

But who is asking you to prove anything at all, because you don't have the burden to prove anything at all?

So, you see dear readers here, that is the unbridgeable chasm with me trying to get an atheist to please take up any issue with me and on the basis of truths, facts, and logic, and the history of ideas, between us two complete it.

At that point in the course of interacting, the atheist will have the urge or need whatever to tell me that I am into proselytizing him - there, no more interaction.

[quote begins]
Mariosep  
Junior Member
 
Religious Views: Liberal protestant

Posts: 14
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Joined: 24th October 2016
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#90
RE: I am a theist, what do you think of my proof for God existing?
Yesterday, 11:17
Dear Jesster, you say: "We have nothing to prove in this topic."

May I just submit that you have to demonstrate that you think on truths, facts, logic, and the history of ideas, of course not in support of the claim God exists, but in support of your reasoning that God does not exist - that is not any burden at all, but it is what you owe yourself for having the use of reason and intelligence: for I submit that being an atheist is no exemption from thinking at all as to be without any rational grounding for taking up the identity of an atheist.

That is the positive part incumbent upon all atheist persons, namely, the keen concentration to examine any claim made by people with an idea to prove, in the present context that God in concept as first and foremost the creator and operator of the universe and man and everything with a beginning, exists in objective reality outside and independent of our mind.

Then also important, negatively to abstain from all kinds of distracting utterances, like all instances of flippancy, unwelcome remarks bordering on what might be called cuss language, and you know what I mean.

[quote ends]

(October 25, 2016 at 4:16 pm)comet Wrote:

(October 25, 2016 at 7:16 am)robvalue Wrote: Simple question, one I rarely get a satisfactory answer to:

Why should I care about any sort of God?

Any sensible definition doesn't preclude a computer programmer in a parent dimension, by the way. I don't understand the compulsion to worship it or to "talk" to it with no idea whether or not the messages are being received by it. The idea that it plans to manifest us in this parent reality after death is absurd, quite honestly. It's much more reasonable to assume it has no idea we are here at all, let alone self-aware.

I don't deny that the concept of God exists, as a concept. It's when you try and move it into reality that you will always fail. It's unfalsifiable at best; incoherent at worst.

you don't have to care.  Any more than my brother cares about the Oort cloud.  But its there.

You remind me....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4Izkay88YI

Forms are loosely fitting
Jury still are sitting
Sense of duty keeps us all in motion
Prison sirens wailing
That security is failing
Do not inspire a lifetime of devotion
No one will sympathize
No one really tries
They need a faith that leads them like a drum
And I can hear it pounding down among the ruins
Sad to say, I don't think I'm the only one.

I awoke and someone spoke
They asked me in a whisper
If all my dreams and visions had been answered
And I don't know what to say
I never even pray
I just feel the pulse of universal dancers
They'll waltz me till I die
They'll never tell me why
I never stop to ask them where we're going
Yes, but the holy, the profane
Are all helplessly insane
Wishful, hopeful, never even knowing.

And they asked if I believe
And do the angels really grieve
Or is it all a comforting invention?
It's just like gravity, I said
It's not a product of my head
It doesn't speak, but nonetheless commands attention
And I don't care what it means
Or who decorates the scenes
The problem is more with my sense of pride
Because it keeps me thinking "me"
Instead of what it is to be
I'm not a passenger, I am the ride
I'm not a passenger
I am the ride

(October 25, 2016 at 4:01 pm)Mariosep Wrote: And yes, I know God exists

Curious...
How do you know that?

Hint: usage of words like "faith" or "belief" is a sure way to you NOT to know... but think you do know.
I'm not very fond of being conned, nor in cognitive dissonance, and much less to be dishonest with myself.... fell free to avoid these pitfalls of theist discourse.

(October 25, 2016 at 4:54 pm)Arkilogue Wrote:

(October 25, 2016 at 4:16 pm)comet Wrote: you don't have to care.  Any more than my brother cares about the Oort cloud.  But its there.

You remind me....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4Izkay88YI

Forms are loosely fitting
Jury still are sitting
Sense of duty keeps us all in motion
Prison sirens wailing
That security is failing
Do not inspire a lifetime of devotion
No one will sympathize
No one really tries
They need a faith that leads them like a drum
And I can hear it pounding down among the ruins
Sad to say, I don't think I'm the only one.

I awoke and someone spoke
They asked me in a whisper
If all my dreams and visions had been answered
And I don't know what to say
I never even pray
I just feel the pulse of universal dancers
They'll waltz me till I die
They'll never tell me why
I never stop to ask them where we're going
Yes, but the holy, the profane
Are all helplessly insane
Wishful, hopeful, never even knowing.

And they asked if I believe
And do the angels really grieve
Or is it all a comforting invention?
It's just like gravity, I said
It's not a product of my head
It doesn't speak, but nonetheless commands attention
And I don't care what it means
Or who decorates the scenes
The problem is more with my sense of pride
Because it keeps me thinking "me"
Instead of what it is to be
I'm not a passenger, I am the ride
I'm not a passenger
I am the ride

definitely true to a degree but its a personal opinion over all.  To limit error and personal opinion we need to add more people describing what we see.

No, at this point in time, 05:10 a.m. October 26, 2016, Wednesday (eight hours in advance of Greenwich), no atheist has come up yet to tell me that he wants to interact with me, but I will continue to monitor here, until of course when I have to go to my daily chores at home, and also eventually take leave of this forum to get busy with making a living, at least until I find time to check in to see whether any atheists at all have taken up to link with me on any issue we will agree to exchange thoughts on - even in the course of making a living or having a life, outside of internet forums.