(May 7, 2017 at 11:38 pm)The Valkyrie Wrote: One of the parts that really made me cringe from Return of the Jedi was when Luke told Leia she was his sister and she replied, "I know.  Somehow, I've always known."

Then why the hell did you snog him in Empire, you silly cow??

The answer to that is probably best left in the family.

(May 5, 2017 at 10:13 am)Brian37 Wrote: Yesterday I watched the marathon, not the new crap, but the original 3. Now what you are about to read isn't about any of the si fi stuff, but the story line and the morality of it. 

I will never object to the masterpiece it was/is. The costumes, the special effects, the acting, were all fantastic timeless and will always be part of movie history. Don't ask me about anything after the original three. I walked out of the theater during the first new one. 

Having said that. Looking back at the original 3 I do have a huge moral objections to the plot line.  Darth Vader blows up an entire planet, which makes him a genocidal monster. But at the end "Return of the Jedi" he becomes Anikan and Luke and Yoda and Ben forgive him. I have a huge problem with that now. It really makes me wonder if the plot of the movie was not modeled off the Saul/Paul story in the bible. 

To me that would be like Dhamer' s dad getting the prison to let him out because one of the victims forgave him. Doesn't the end of Return of the Jedi remind you of how Christians argue that you can be the worst in the world and still be forgiven? Darth Vader committed genocide. 

And did anyone forget the fact that Luke and Lea had a big huge sloppy mouth kiss only to find out they were brother and sister? EWE!

The rebels themselves were not good if were talking morals. Normal average people worked in and on the death star. Normal people maintenance workers constructors etc (death star 2).
Not to mention in terms of damage the rebels did far more damage than the empire did. We can argue on that but in reality the the rebels weren't good guys. The empire ended galatic slavery they did do good things but at the same time the treatment of the alien races were well... bad.  Not all the people who worked for the empire was bad palpatine he was a very evil person Anakin.. he.. was a broken person really palpatine really just nudged him to go evil. Let's go back with the sith and the jedi galatic slavery still a issue both sides didn't really do anything about it. The jedi simply are too political and if you needed help the empire and the sith at least get the job done all in all it's how you look at it. The empire not bad in most areas but are bad with race relations between species and bad in the way that you know blow up a planet.

Honestly i am glad they blew up that one planet though if you played the star wars MMO you would agree with me as well. I hated that planets quest line way to much.

not to mention they destroyed the galatic economy destroying both death stars it took a lot planets to make both resource and credits wise.

(May 8, 2017 at 11:12 am)dyresand Wrote:

(May 5, 2017 at 10:13 am)Brian37 Wrote: Yesterday I watched the marathon, not the new crap, but the original 3. Now what you are about to read isn't about any of the si fi stuff, but the story line and the morality of it. 

I will never object to the masterpiece it was/is. The costumes, the special effects, the acting, were all fantastic timeless and will always be part of movie history. Don't ask me about anything after the original three. I walked out of the theater during the first new one. 

Having said that. Looking back at the original 3 I do have a huge moral objections to the plot line.  Darth Vader blows up an entire planet, which makes him a genocidal monster. But at the end "Return of the Jedi" he becomes Anikan and Luke and Yoda and Ben forgive him. I have a huge problem with that now. It really makes me wonder if the plot of the movie was not modeled off the Saul/Paul story in the bible. 

To me that would be like Dhamer' s dad getting the prison to let him out because one of the victims forgave him. Doesn't the end of Return of the Jedi remind you of how Christians argue that you can be the worst in the world and still be forgiven? Darth Vader committed genocide. 

And did anyone forget the fact that Luke and Lea had a big huge sloppy mouth kiss only to find out they were brother and sister? EWE!

The rebels themselves were not good if were talking morals. Normal average people worked in and on the death star. Normal people maintenance workers constructors etc (death star 2).
Not to mention in terms of damage the rebels did far more damage than the empire did. We can argue on that but in reality the the rebels weren't good guys. The empire ended galatic slavery they did do good things but at the same time the treatment of the alien races were well... bad.  Not all the people who worked for the empire was bad palpatine he was a very evil person Anakin.. he.. was a broken person really palpatine really just nudged him to go evil. Let's go back with the sith and the jedi galatic slavery still a issue both sides didn't really do anything about it. The jedi simply are too political and if you needed help the empire and the sith at least get the job done all in all it's how you look at it. The empire not bad in most areas but are bad with race relations between species and bad in the way that you know blow up a planet.

Honestly i am glad they blew up that one planet though if you played the star wars MMO you would agree with me as well. I hated that planets quest line way to much.

not to mention they destroyed the galatic economy destroying both death stars it took a lot planets to make both resource and credits wise.

Huh? I never got that out of the series? The Empire were the good guys? No sorry, I don't see the logic in that. 

It sounds like you are arguing just like some "Satanists" do trying to paint him as the real hero.

In the end the story is still religious in nature, good vs evil with superstition thrown in. I am not seeing the logic in valuing Darth or the Emperor as the good guys. Or you are merely using sarcasm to remind me it is only a movie, which I do accept. 

The only thing I said was I don't see the plot the same way now as I did back then.

You've never heard the argument that the Empire are the good guys? I'm honestly surprised.

See, the Empire rose to power in an immoral way, but after that, their goal was always peace in the galaxy. They stop the drug trade, keep shipping lanes safe, and help defend member worlds from outside invasion. Some people see all of that as a positive.

Quite a bit of effort is made to paint them as villains, because the audience sees the entire story from the perspective of the Rebels. But to the Empire, the rebels are just a big terrorist cell.

I also played SWG (Star Wars Galaxies) and it was the first time I came across this idea. Players could chose to be either Empire or Rebel, and I would have expected a very imbalanced game where most people chose Rebel, but that wasn't the case. It was split quite evenly and people the chose the Empire were able to defend it's positions as defenders of peace and free trade.

Anyway, the point is every story has 2 sides.

Real fans know that the Emperor was actually trying to save the galaxy by preparing it for the Yuuzhan Vong invasion.

(May 8, 2017 at 12:27 pm)Aroura Wrote: You've never heard the argument that the Empire are the good guys?  I'm honestly surprised.

See, the Empire rose to power in an immoral way, but after that, their goal was always peace in the galaxy.  They stop the drug trade, keep shipping lanes safe, and help defend member worlds from outside invasion.  Some people see all of that as a positive.

Quite a bit of effort is made to paint them as villains, because the audience sees the entire story from the perspective of the Rebels.  But to the Empire, the rebels are just a big terrorist cell.

I also played SWG (Star Wars Galaxies) and it was the first time I came across this idea. Players could chose to be either Empire or Rebel, and I would have expected a very imbalanced game where most people chose Rebel, but that wasn't the case.  It was split quite evenly and people the chose the Empire were able to defend it's positions as defenders of peace and free trade.  

Anyway, the point is every story has 2 sides.

No actually this is the first time, but it doesn't shock me, I am sure there are Star Wars fans who really argue that, but to me that is simply the si fi version of religion. Cant have a hero without a villain. 

I see absolutely no logic in valuing mass genocide so nope, cant bring myself to value Vader or the Emperor anymore than I would value someone making an apology for Un or Hitler.

But even with the Characters in the Bible, some do argue Satan is the real good guy, but no, to me since both are fictional it still does not make any sense. Heaven doesn't appeal to me because it is all about kissing one beings ass, but neither does hell because that is eternal unimaginable pain.

Neither the good side of the Force or Dark side of the Force appeal to me, but real human empathy does appeal to me, and in that context, as far as the movie goes, I'd side with the Rebels.

(May 8, 2017 at 1:24 pm)Cyberman Wrote:

Yea, and try not to think about the fact that that group is trying to kill you at the same time. War is hell, yep.

(May 8, 2017 at 12:27 pm)Aroura Wrote: You've never heard the argument that the Empire are the good guys?  I'm honestly surprised.

"For the greater god."