(May 22, 2017 at 3:29 pm)SteveII Wrote:

(May 21, 2017 at 4:07 am)MellisaClarke Wrote: I have been seeing too many atheists memes these later months. I wonder about myself now, and I wonder about my goals.

I saw another meme some days ago about God that I am having problems thinking about.


Statement: "Everything has a creator, and God has no creator".

I always think the above as correct.

The meme continues: "Since God has no creator, God is not a thing to be created, or no thing to be created, i.e. nothing; God is nothing".

Am I a true Christian for having problems with the above? Help!

The statement is contradictory and cannot be correct. God belongs to the set/class of "everything".

A correct version: "Everything that begins to exists has an explanation for its existence". 

God didn't begin to exist because if he did, then he wouldn't be God--whatever created him would be. At some point you have to have a necessary being (in the sense of couldn't be otherwise).

Thanks for your input. 
Make me feel more comfortable now.

Edit:
I think I feel settled with your answer above.
But I still don't feel comfortable with any answer given for one other thread (responders made fun of the topic mostly). (here)
My pastor and friends did not make me feel wholesome about their responses.

Quote: At some point you have to have a necessary being (in the sense of couldn't be otherwise).

No, you don't.  That is merely a concoction of people who desperately need there to be an invisible sky-daddy to keep them feeling secure in their childishness.

Nope there is no necessity of beings. Every being we know of is contingent.

(May 22, 2017 at 3:29 pm)SteveII Wrote: The statement is contradictory and cannot be correct. God belongs to the set/class of "everything".

A correct version: "Everything that begins to exists has an explanation for its existence". 

God didn't begin to exist because if he did, then he wouldn't be God--whatever created him would be. At some point you have to have a necessary being (in the sense of couldn't be otherwise).

You cannot reason a being into existence.

And, "God did it" is not an explanation -- it is only a fancy way of saying "I don't fuckin' know."

And, you're equivocating "explanation" and "cause". They are not the same thing. General relativity explains the relationship between time and space, but it doesn't cause a damned thing.

Finally, the only class your god belongs to is "unproven horseshit." Until you can demonstrate his or her existence, you really shouldn't be making claims.

(May 23, 2017 at 8:46 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(May 22, 2017 at 3:29 pm)SteveII Wrote: The statement is contradictory and cannot be correct. God belongs to the set/class of "everything".

A correct version: "Everything that begins to exists has an explanation for its existence". 

God didn't begin to exist because if he did, then he wouldn't be God--whatever created him would be. At some point you have to have a necessary being (in the sense of couldn't be otherwise).

You cannot reason a being into existence.

And, "God did it" is not an explanation -- it is only a fancy way of saying "I don't fuckin' know." [1]

And, you're equivocating "explanation" and "cause". They are not the same thing. General relativity explains the relationship between time and space, but it doesn't cause a damned thing. [2]

Finally, the only class your god belongs to is "unproven horseshit." Until you can demonstrate his or her existence, you really shouldn't be making claims. [3]

1. This specific natural theology argument is one of many many reasons to believe God exists. It is part of a cumulative case for God. Other reasons include my list I've posted elsewhere: 

Quote:Reasons that I believe God exists and Christianity best fits the facts:

1. Person of Jesus is compelling.
2. The NT describes actual events including the miracles, life, death and resurrection of Jesus.
3. God works in people's lives today--changing people on the inside as well as the occurrence of miracles.
4. The natural theology arguments:
     a. God is the best explanation why anything at all exists.
     b. God is the best explanation of the origin of the universe.
     c. God is the best explanation of the fine-tuning of the universe for intelligent life.
     d. God is the best explanation of intentional states of consciousness.
     e. God is the best explanation of objective moral values and duties.

 
2. While I think 'explanation' is a more robust word, I don't think it matters. Insert 'cause' if you like.

3. See 1. I have lots of evidence and reasons to believe.

Yeah, you believe what's most comfortable for you to believe.
1. Maybe, like a lot of other legendary figures. Doesn't make him (or any of them) divine. That doesn't even follow.
2. That's exactly what's in question, good question begging.
3. And apparently so does Buddha and Krishna. That's possibly evidence that meditating on an inspirational figure can be psychologically useful, not that the figure being meditated on is real.
4. You think God is the best explanation, but 'God did it' isn't actually an explanation at all, it's a way to pretend you've got one when you actually don't know.

Lot's of bad reasons do not add up to one good one.

(May 23, 2017 at 9:29 am)SteveII Wrote: 1. This specific natural theology argument is one of many many reasons to believe God exists. It is part of a cumulative case for God. Other reasons include my list I've posted elsewhere: 

Reasons that I believe God exists and Christianity best fits the facts:

1. Person of Jesus is compelling.
2. The NT describes actual events including the miracles, life, death and resurrection of Jesus.
3. God works in people's lives today--changing people on the inside as well as the occurrence of miracles.
4. The natural theology arguments:
     a. God is the best explanation why anything at all exists.

Which it isn't.

     

Quote:b. God is the best explanation of the origin of the universe.

This should be in with your point a), but was probably separated in order to convey a more impressive appearance -- make-weight for your list. At any rate, it is not the best explanation for the origin of anything, except things like the 30 Years' War or the Irish Troubles.

     

Quote:c. God is the best explanation of the fine-tuning of the universe for intelligent life.

99.99999 ..... % of the Universe is so hostile to human life that we'd vaporize instantly were we exposed to it. Even our own planet will kill us; we had to invent clothing because your little god couldn't even see fit to grant us hides of fur like he did other mammals.

     

Quote:d. God is the best explanation of intentional states of consciousness.

Which it isn't. For those states, I'd recommend you read some Nick Humphries. He explains a lot more than your mythology ever could.

     

Quote:e. God is the best explanation of objective moral values and duties.

You mean the god who killed all but seven humans in a flood because of their sinful nature -- the nature that he himself gave them at creation? That the god you're talking about?

Welcome to moral subjectivity, Steve. Pull up a chair and grab a cuppa joe. You're gonna be here a while.
 

Quote:2. While I think 'explanation' is a more robust word, I don't think it matters. Insert 'cause' if you like.

That may explain your equivocation, but it doesn't justify it. And FYI, the refutation of this argument is so old that fiddling with this or that word is the equivalent of painting the Titanic. You still haven't resolved the special pleading, which means that you're in the same ship.

Quote:3. See 1. I have lots of evidence and reasons to believe.

No, you may have "reasons to believe", but you have no evidence of any gods, including your own. If you had evidence, you would already have presented it, with supporting citations and links.

(May 22, 2017 at 12:59 pm)Drich Wrote: The values changed because they were wrong before... As they will change again because they are wrong now as well.. You just haven't been told to think that way yet.

The point being your 'answers' are only absolute till someone smarter simply says so and points to his new theory and it all starts again. All I am pointing out is the sand beneath your feet is as shifting as the sand beneath ours.

---

I guess sheep like you prefer to be told that nothing changes and nothing can be improved upon because....god.  The sand under our feet is shifting toward greater accuracy and truth.  You have nothing beneath your feet.

I love it when the Rosie O'donalds of the world pipe up and compare the science that makes a computer work as being the same fringe science that few this far out beyond the big bang in the scientific realm will ever agree on as being the same 'science..'

It just goes to show that one does not need to know anything about industrial sciences and untested scientific postulations to be 'atheist.'.
[/quote]

And it just goes to show you that people can throw words around without knowing what they mean, and look like a moron doing it.  I guess your being a moron is all part of god's plan...

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(May 22, 2017 at 3:29 pm)SteveII Wrote: At some point you have to have a necessary being (in the sense of couldn't be otherwise).

Why?

---

(May 23, 2017 at 9:29 am)SteveII Wrote:

(May 23, 2017 at 8:46 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: You cannot reason a being into existence.

And, "God did it" is not an explanation -- it is only a fancy way of saying "I don't fuckin' know." [1]

And, you're equivocating "explanation" and "cause". They are not the same thing. General relativity explains the relationship between time and space, but it doesn't cause a damned thing. [2]

Finally, the only class your god belongs to is "unproven horseshit." Until you can demonstrate his or her existence, you really shouldn't be making claims. [3]

1. This specific natural theology argument is one of many many reasons to believe God exists. It is part of a cumulative case for God. Other reasons include my list I've posted elsewhere: 

Quote:Reasons that I believe God exists and Christianity best fits the facts:

1. Person of Jesus is compelling.
2. The NT describes actual events including the miracles, life, death and resurrection of Jesus.
3. God works in people's lives today--changing people on the inside as well as the occurrence of miracles.
4. The natural theology arguments:
     a. God is the best explanation why anything at all exists.
     b. God is the best explanation of the origin of the universe.
     c. God is the best explanation of the fine-tuning of the universe for intelligent life.
     d. God is the best explanation of intentional states of consciousness.
     e. God is the best explanation of objective moral values and duties.

 
2. While I think 'explanation' is a more robust word, I don't think it matters. Insert 'cause' if you like.

3. See 1. I have lots of evidence and reasons to believe.

You have a lot of assertions.

(May 23, 2017 at 9:54 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(May 23, 2017 at 9:29 am)SteveII Wrote: 1. This specific natural theology argument is one of many many reasons to believe God exists. It is part of a cumulative case for God. Other reasons include my list I've posted elsewhere: 

Reasons that I believe God exists and Christianity best fits the facts:

1. Person of Jesus is compelling.
2. The NT describes actual events including the miracles, life, death and resurrection of Jesus.
3. God works in people's lives today--changing people on the inside as well as the occurrence of miracles.
4. The natural theology arguments:
     a. God is the best explanation why anything at all exists.

Which it isn't.

     

Quote:b. God is the best explanation of the origin of the universe.

This should be in with your point a), but was probably separated in order to convey a more impressive appearance -- make-weight for your list. At any rate, it is not the best explanation for the origin of anything, except things like the 30 Years' War or the Irish Troubles.

     

Quote:c. God is the best explanation of the fine-tuning of the universe for intelligent life.

99.99999 ..... % of the Universe is so hostile to human life that we'd vaporize instantly were we exposed to it. Even our own planet will kill us; we had to invent clothing because your little god couldn't even see fit to grant us hides of fur like he did other mammals.

     

Quote:d. God is the best explanation of intentional states of consciousness.

Which it isn't. For those states, I'd recommend you read some Nick Humphries. He explains a lot more than your mythology ever could.

     

Quote:e. God is the best explanation of objective moral values and duties.

You mean the god who killed all but seven humans in a flood because of their sinful nature -- the nature that he himself gave them at creation?  That the god you're talking about?

Welcome to moral subjectivity, Steve. Pull up a chair and grab a cuppa joe. You're gonna be here a while.
 

Quote:2. While I think 'explanation' is a more robust word, I don't think it matters. Insert 'cause' if you like.

That may explain your equivocation, but it doesn't justify it. And FYI, the refutation of this argument is so old that fiddling with this or that word is the equivalent of painting the Titanic. You still haven't resolved the special pleading, which means that you're in the same ship.

Quote:3. See 1. I have lots of evidence and reasons to believe.

No, you may have "reasons to believe", but you have no evidence of any gods, including your own. If you had evidence, you would already have presented it, with supporting citations and links.

Not going to discuss all of them at the same time. Pick one if you want to discuss it.

Can't say I blame you. That's an awful lot to explain away.

Perhaps if you weren't willing to discuss it all, you should not have referred me to it? I'm not afraid of a little Gish Gallop, I've seen better than yours.