(June 25, 2017 at 9:02 pm)nosferatu323 Wrote: I didn't come to any conclusion.

You don't recall offering the gem...that an atheist couldn't coherently say that he doesn't believe in any god, in the face of the pantheist god?  You absolutely have come to a conclusion.  The conclusion....at the very least that the pantheists god is cogent enough to provide some sort of logical problem for an atheist.  How could you have reached -that- conclusion..not knowing what a god is?

Quote:Universe is God is simply a sentence to invite people to try to see the universe in a different light. It doesn't mean anything. Why? Because it's very cool. It's very very cool to see the universe in a particular way. In a way that it is one and there is no multiplicity in it. So it's natural to invite others also. God is just the most popular nonsensical word to refer to something very desirable which must be attained and is not already here with you. It's a useful word, but once someone observes the oneness of the Universe, the term is useless. The story ends. Of course you'll have to use God to help out those who are interested to join.

What did I just read?

Quote:Ok, let's talk some nonsense to see if it makes it more interesting for you, the illusion of "I" makes you perceive the Universe as a collection of objects, and prevents you from seeing the real nature of the Universe which is one.

That's not what makes me perceive the universe as a collection of objects...at all.  It doesn't prevent me  from seeing that the universe is one, at all, either...particularly if all of these shamans with intact "I"s keep seeing "the real nature of the universe"......  

Quote:As soon as the illusion of separation of "I" and the Universe is removed,

-by sitting on the ground cross legged and quiet..let's make sure that we don't forget what we're talking about...as though it weren't patently ridiculous on it's face.......

Quote:the separation of objects from each other and the Universe also vanishes.

Hmn, something tells me that when I invariably fall asleep...the separate object of my head crashing into the separate object of the floor will reverse whatever effect this woo is supposed to have.

Quote:What remains is the Universe alone. Once you attain this state of conciseness you are no longer an independent agent within this Universe but a mere observer.

Cool story?

Spend a few seconds in the Total Perspective Vortex. Might shed some light on how dippy that whole sentiment is. Bring me back some fairy cake.

So, I've always found this particular area of magical thinking fascinating -as a sideline.

Don't you think it might be deleterious for an organism to be able to exert the kind of control over it's most vital functions that is being described as a result of meditation?  If we could, for example..."turn off our I"...what would turn it back on again?  What keeps it from happening on accident?  Why don't people just stop where they are, and for no discernible reason......stare blankly into space never moving again until the day they die?  What other things can we control? Could I stop my heart, for example?

Say I'm driving a bus, and my nirvana switch malfunctions?  What happens to the people on the bus?  What happens to me? If I were quietly contemplating self on the savannah...and I entered yogic beastmode, level ten.......does the lion eat me, or avoid me for the immense auric brilliance raditiating outward from my recently enlightened non-self?

(June 25, 2017 at 9:19 pm)Astonished Wrote: You're talking about that meditation thing where you ascend beyond the physical or something? Wouldn't someone that enlightened not be hanging around here on Earth anymore?

Hi there,

I don't know what you mean by enlightened and what you mean by "beyond the physical". Maybe I'm I don't know, I can't say if I can't understand what you are talking about.

I was making fun of you, by way of 'crossing the woo streams' as Seth Andrews puts it. Some homeless woman years ago came into the gas station I used to work at during graveyard shifts and we had a philosophical conversation where she said this one Buddhist guy meditated and 'left' his body, so he must have truly achieved that oneness jazz you seem to be talking about.

(June 25, 2017 at 9:26 pm)Khemikal Wrote: So, I've always found this particular area of magical thinking fascinating -as a sideline.

Don't you think it might be deleterious for an organism to be able to exert the kind of control over it's most vital functions that is being described as a result of meditation?  If we could, for example..."turn off our I"...what would turn it back on again?  What keeps it from happening on accident?  Why don't people just stop where they are, and for no discernible reason......stare blankly into space never moving again until the day they die?  What other things can we control?  Could I stop my heart, for example?

Say I'm driving a bus, and my nirvana switch malfunctions?  What happens to the people on the bus?  What happens to me?  If I were quietly contemplating self on the savannah...and I entered yogic beastmode, level ten.......does the lion eat me, or avoid me for the immense auric brilliance raditiating outward from my recently enlightened non-self?

Quote:Don't you think it might be deleterious for an organism to be able to exert the kind of control over it's most vital functions that is being described as a result of meditation? 

There are some rather serious studies about physiological transformations of practitioners of meditation. You can check the out. I have very little knowledge about biology so I do not talk about it.

Quote:If we could, for example..."turn off our I"...what would turn it back on again?  What keeps it from happening on accident?

Once it turns off there is no agency, once it's turned on you will perceive the agency to turn it off again if you want. 

Quote:Why don't people just stop where they are, and for no discernible reason......stare blankly into space never moving again until the day they die?

Because that's not natural?

Quote:What other things can we control?  Could I stop my heart, for example?

It seems with prolonged meditation many things is possible. But once the "I" is removed there is no agency and all this stuff will be irrelevant. 

Quote:Say I'm driving a bus, and my nirvana switch malfunctions?  What happens to the people on the bus?  What happens to me?  If I were quietly contemplating self on the savannah...and I entered yogic beastmode, level ten.......does the lion eat me, or avoid me for the immense auric brilliance raditiating outward from my recently enlightened non-self?

Lol... I don't know we should try and see. The experiment is pretty hard to produce though...btw, people who attain to remove the "I" are identified by "good" characteristics. whatever that means. That's just the natural consequence of the shift in consciousness.

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(June 25, 2017 at 9:20 pm)Khemikal Wrote: nosferatu323
You don't recall offering the gem...that an atheist couldn't coherently say that he doesn't believe in any god, in the face of the pantheist god?  You absolutely have come to a conclusion.  The conclusion....at the very least that the pantheists god is cogent enough to provide some sort of logical problem for an atheist.  How could you have reached -that- conclusion..not knowing what a god is?

Ok I'm sorry, I was playing just some language games. I was never THAT serious. 

Quote:That's not what makes me perceive the universe as a collection of objects...at all.  It doesn't prevent me  from seeing that the universe is one, at all, either...particularly if all of these shamans with intact "I"s keep seeing "the real nature of the universe"......  

If your get shot, do you still perceive the universe as one as you are bleeding to death?

Quote:-by sitting on the ground cross legged and quiet..let's make sure that we don't forget what we're talking about...as though it weren't patently ridiculous on it's face.......

You don't really have to sit on the ground. Really. And you don't need to be quiet either. That's just easier that way. And they sit on the ground because they don't have chair. What are you doing now? Aren't you sitting? It's just about keeping the awareness.

(June 25, 2017 at 9:48 pm)nosferatu323 Wrote:

Quote:Don't you think it might be deleterious for an organism to be able to exert the kind of control over it's most vital functions that is being described as a result of meditation? 

There are some rather serious studies about physiological transformations of practitioners of meditation. You can check the out. I have very little knowledge about biology so I do not talk about it.

I don't know that you have to know a whole lot about bio to comment on that one, honestly.  We're just spitballing, anyway, it;s a ideline.  Can you think of ways that posessing this ability might go wrong..is all I'm asking?

Quote:Once it turns off there is no agency, once it's turned on you will perceive the agency to turn it off again if you want. 

So, with no agency..what does the turning on again...that was the question.  How is it that the guru returns to tell the tale?  

Quote:Because that's not natural?

Right, but...if we have that ability, if there's a switch somewhere in us that can be activated or even potentially malfunction..then -why- isn't it natural.  That's what I'm asking.  Why don't we see it more often, or..really..at all?

Quote:It seems with prolonged meditation many things is possible. But once the "I" is removed there is no agency and all this stuff will be irrelevant. 

It seems relevant, to the people on the bus, to my body lying on the savanah...to just not eating some bad shrimp and ghosting out into oneness with the universe..you know?  

Quote:Lol... I don't know we should try and see. The experiment is pretty hard to produce though...btw, people who attain to remove the "I" are identified by "good" characteristics. whatever that means. That's just the natural consequence of the shift in consciousness.

Natural....consequence?  Well..that's what I've been asking about.  Wouldn't the very existence of this ability in human beings have natural consequences?  

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Quote:Ok I'm sorry, I was playing just some language games. I was never THAT serious. 

I wish I could say that I was surprised.  

Quote:If your get shot, do you still perceive the universe as one as you are bleeding to death?

It's not like the movies, lol...you don't lie there getting philosophical.  You go into shock. Most people piss themselves..in my experience. I certanly wouldn;t trust any "feeling of one-ness with the universe"...or separation from it..reported by someone who was bleeding out. Cheifly, because..you know...they're bleeding out. A fair few of their sensory and cognitive systems are deeply compromised, at that point.

Quote:You don't really have to sit on the ground. Really. And you don't need to be quiet either. That's just easier that way. And they sit on the ground because they don't have chair. What are you doing now? Aren't you sitting? It's just about keeping the awareness.

What's "keeping the awareness"?  That sounds alot like agency, like a self.

(June 25, 2017 at 10:53 pm)Khemikal Wrote: I don't know that you have to know a whole lot about bio to comment on that one, honestly.  We're just spitballing, anyway, it;s a ideline.  Can you think of ways that posessing this ability might go wrong..is all I'm asking?

Once the "I" is gone nothing can go wrong. You are no longer "concerned" about anything. The "I" is no longer there to "die" or to "experience pain" or whatever. 

Quote:So, with no agency..what does the turning on again...that was the question.  How is it that the guru returns to tell the tale?  

the lack of agency doesn't mean you are gone silent. The guy drops the "I", and watches the dropped "I" becoming a guru, prophet, etc. and telling others weird and nonsensical stuff. Turning on the agency is a different story, some say it's impossible.

Quote:Right, but...if we have that ability, if there's a switch somewhere in us that can be activated or even potentially malfunction..then -why- isn't it natural.  That's what I'm asking.  Why don't we see it more often, or..really..at all?

Your current state is natural, and you will naturally step into the next stage of your evolution when the time comes or in other words you'll get retired from the chain of evolution, since evolution will be irrelevant when "I" is gone, in other words you get liberated from Samsara and attain Nirvana, in other words the Lord forgives you and pulls you out from the depths of hell and you step into his Heaven, etc.

Quote:It seems relevant, to the people on the bus, to my body lying on the savanah...to just not eating some bad shrimp and ghosting out into oneness with the universe..you know?  

The "I" is dropped and with it all of its concerns. What can go wrong? The Universe is perfect.

Quote:It's not like the movies, lol...you don't lie there getting philosophical.  You go into shock. Most people piss themselves..in my experience.  I certanly wouldn;t trust any "feeling of one-ness with the universe"...or separation from it..reported by someone who was bleeding out.  Cheifly, because..you know...they're bleeding out.  A fair few of their sensory and cognitive systems are deeply compromised, at that point.  

It's not about getting philosophical. Once the "I" is gone, it's literally gone. You can watch the dropped "I" slowly die in pain in absolute peacefulness.

Quote:What's "keeping the awareness"?  That sounds alot like agency, like a self.

persistent practicing to keep the awareness makes sense and is necessary as long as "I" is there. Once it is dropped, There will be no agency to "keep awareness" or to do anything else.

(June 25, 2017 at 11:41 pm)nosferatu323 Wrote: Once the "I" is gone nothing can go wrong. You are no longer "concerned" about anything. The "I" is no longer there to "die" or to "experience pain" or whatever. 

Well, obviously, but what about all the other people..on the bus I;m driving?  What abou the people who depend on me, after I get eaten by the lion?  I don;t know, but it seems to me as though there would be a notable effect, things would be happening in the world...if we had this ability, or this sort of self switch.   Most of them very, very bad™.

Quote:the lack of agency doesn't mean you are gone silent. The guy drops the "I", and watches the dropped "I" becoming a guru, prophet, etc. and telling others weird and nonsensical stuff. Turning on the agency is a different story, some say it's impossible.

Hopefully, none of those who say that also claim to have achieved this state......because that would be perplexing.  I still can't determine in what meaningful way the I is gone?

Quote:Your current state is natural, and you will naturally step into the next stage of your evolution when the time comes or in other words you'll get retired from the chain of evolution, since evolution will be irrelevant when "I" is gone, in other words you get liberated from Samsara and attain Nirvana, in other words the Lord forgives you and pulls you out from the depths of hell and you step into his Heaven, etc.

The next stage of my evolution?  Is this ability a mutation.....?

Quote:The "I" is dropped and with it all of its concerns. What can go wrong? The Universe is perfect.

The universe is suddenly perfect for the simple fact of no longer having my self in it?  That seems harsh, lol?

Quote:It's not about getting philosophical. Once the "I" is gone, it's literally gone. You can watch the dropped "I" slowly die in pain in absolute peacefulness.

That doesn;t sound like a bit of a contradiction in terms, to you?  Again, though,. this is kind of what I;m talking about.  Why don;t more people die from meditating, or from this switch being accidentally flipped?  Why is it that it takes getting shot, for example?  What's holding it in or keeping it from malfunctioning all the other times?  

Quote:persistent practicing to keep the awareness makes sense and is necessary as long as "I" is there. Once it is dropped, There will be no agency to "keep awareness" or to do anything else.

Okay.  So, again sort of spitballing..but would that mean that involuntary functions of the body would or could continue?  Breathing, for example?  Where are the mysteriously comatose guru bodies......or just random joes on the street.  Vegged out, completely gone behind the eyes, as it were...but breathing?

(June 26, 2017 at 12:25 am)Khemikal Wrote: Well, obviously, but what about all the other people..on the bus I;m driving?  What abou the people who depend on me, after I get eaten by the lion?  I don;t know, but it seems to me as though there would be a notable effect, things would be happening in the world...if we had this ability, or this sort of self switch.   Most of them very, very bad™.  

What other people? There are no people. There is the Universe, nothing else. When your "I" is dropped other's "I"s are also dropped. Nothing can go wrong in the Universe. Does things go wrong in far space or in deep sea? The notion of "wrong" emanates from the fear of death which depends on the "I", once it's gone nothing can go wrong.

Quote:Hopefully, none of those who say that also claim to have achieved this state......because that would be perplexing.  I still can't determine in what meaningful way the I is gone?

The I is gone when you realize that it is already gone? The I is gone when you realize that there was never an I? The I is gone when you believe it's gone? The I is gone when you let it go? can you make any sense out of it? You'll somehow need to face a voluntary death. One aspect of emphasis on "martyrs" in different religions is to symbolize this for the mass. 

We are pre-supposing the existence and inexistence of "I" at the same time. There is no way to get rid of the contradiction through out our talk. The only solution is to drop the assumption that I exists. You ready?  

Quote:The next stage of my evolution?  Is this ability a mutation.....?

Clearly not. "being retired from evolution" is more appropriate. 

Quote:The universe is suddenly perfect for the simple fact of no longer having my self in it?  That seems harsh, lol?

The Universe has always been perfect, was there any imperfection in the formation of our galaxy? the perfection and imperfection are irrelevant when you consider that there is only "the laws of nature" and nothing more. The "I" only obscures this fact.

Quote:That doesn;t sound like a bit of a contradiction in terms, to you?  Again, though,. this is kind of what I;m talking about.  Why don;t more people die from meditating, or from this switch being accidentally flipped?  Why is it that it takes getting shot, for example?  What's holding it in or keeping it from malfunctioning all the other times?  

The Universe watches the dropped "I" dying in pain with absolute peacefulness. You can pick this one, at least the contradiction is gone I guess.
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. Why someone should die because of an accidental switch? These accidental switches might be the kind of "spiritual experiences" people report, they drop the "I" temporarily and after they pick it up they attach all sort of their personal brand of delusions to the experience. The experience itself isn't anything "spiritual" of course, because that word doesn't mean anything. I still don't get it why you expect people die because of malfunctioning?

In fact there is no "malfunction" in the Universe, the Universe just works they way it works, there is no other "proper way" to compare the Universe with it and conclude that it's malfunctioning. 

Quote:Okay.  So, again sort of spitballing..but would that mean that involuntary functions of the body would or could continue?  Breathing, for example?  Where are the mysteriously comatose guru bodies......or just random joes on the street.  Vegged out, completely gone behind the eyes, as it were...but breathing?

I'm not sure I understand what you are talking about. The normal functions of the body involuntary or voluntary will be there, without the "I"  the "voluntary" label is gone though. Please clarify it If I'm not getting what you're saying.