(September 5, 2017 at 1:22 am)Tizheruk Wrote: A man like myself says fuck that . Brings a gun with armour piercing rounds and strikes out of the armored mans reach . And wins .

Nietzsche Wrote:He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss also gazes into you.

Benny is right here: rights are meaningless if they are not extended to all. Freedom of speech and assembly means extending those same rights to everyone

Quote:He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss also gazes into you.

I have better one . Beware he who tolerates monsters and allows them to grows and prosper in your mist under the misguided notion of confusing them with ducks or sheep. And declaring because we treat the ducks and sheep one way we must do the same to the monsters . And as the monsters plot and scheme and make there contempt for all we stand for right in front of us . Some say we don't want to be  monsters and lie down on the ground and wait to be devoured because it's not something a monster do. Others say i'm not a monster but I refuse to lie down and wait for the monster to eat me and cuts the monster down . 

Just because one can stare into the abyss and it can gaze back does not make you and the abyss one and the same.

(September 5, 2017 at 3:35 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(September 5, 2017 at 1:22 am)Tizheruk Wrote: A man like myself says fuck that . Brings a gun with armour piercing rounds and strikes out of the armored mans reach . And wins .

Nietzsche Wrote:He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss also gazes into you.

Benny is right here: rights are meaningless if they are not extended to all. Freedom of speech and assembly means extending those same rights to everyone

Again, freedom is not a suicide pact.

(September 5, 2017 at 5:59 am)Tizheruk Wrote:

Quote:He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss also gazes into you.

I have better one . Beware he who tolerates monsters and allows them to grows and prosper in your mist under the misguided notion of confusing them with ducks or sheep. And declaring because we treat the ducks and sheep one way we must do the same to the monsters . And as the monsters plot and scheme and make there contempt for all we stand for right in front of us . Some say we don't want to be  monsters and lie down on the ground and wait to be devoured because it's not something a monster do. Others say i'm not a monster but I refuse to lie down and wait for the monster to eat me and cuts the monster down . 

Just because one can stare into the abyss and it can gaze back does not make you and the abyss one and the same.

So much this. ^^^^^^^^^..... I do get tired of those on the right pulling the same shit excuse they point to people from the east in arguing, "Not all" and "I didn't"...... It does not have to be all, but just enough to screw things up for everyone.

Hate and fear and scapegoating by politicians is toxic to the idea of western pluralism. America is not at a point in history where the rhetoric of one man can be, or should be ignored. 45 is a monster, maybe not a monster with absolute power, but a monster who does not understand that his political vilification is an attack on western pluralism.

(September 5, 2017 at 5:59 am)Tizheruk Wrote:

Quote:He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss also gazes into you.

I have better one . Beware he who tolerates monsters and allows them to grows and prosper in your mist under the misguided notion of confusing them with ducks or sheep. And declaring because we treat the ducks and sheep one way we must do the same to the monsters . And as the monsters plot and scheme and make there contempt for all we stand for right in front of us . Some say we don't want to be  monsters and lie down on the ground and wait to be devoured because it's not something a monster do. Others say i'm not a monster but I refuse to lie down and wait for the monster to eat me and cuts the monster down . 

Just because one can stare into the abyss and it can gaze back does not make you and the abyss one and the same.

A monster is someone whose opinions you so strongly disagree with that you fear them or despise them.  Jews, witches, commies, Nazis, SJWs-- these are all monsters to someone.  Nobody here is supporting the idea of white supremacy, or underestimating the danger they pose to the society.  We are saying that when you take the law into your own hands, or into the hands of whatever mob you most identify with, YOU are the monster.

It's better to have a few noble victims in the name of peace than to become a society of millions of cowardly mob-driven monsters.

But in your case, I think it's more than that.  I think it's ironic that you come from a native background-- once thought savage and uncivilized and most cruelly treated at the hands of settlers; and that you, now smelling yourself to be in the moral majority, are so willing to throw away the humanity and rights of human beings which YOU consider backward and uncivilized.

There's also a pragmatic reason to allow people you dislike the right to speak freely. It keeps them in the open. It lets you see them coming a mile away. Do we really need a bunch of pissed-off, disenfranchised Southerners building home-made bombs in their basements because blowing up government buildings or black churches is the only way for them to be heard?

(September 5, 2017 at 8:56 am)bennyboy Wrote:

(September 5, 2017 at 5:59 am)Tizheruk Wrote: I have better one . Beware he who tolerates monsters and allows them to grows and prosper in your mist under the misguided notion of confusing them with ducks or sheep. And declaring because we treat the ducks and sheep one way we must do the same to the monsters . And as the monsters plot and scheme and make there contempt for all we stand for right in front of us . Some say we don't want to be  monsters and lie down on the ground and wait to be devoured because it's not something a monster do. Others say i'm not a monster but I refuse to lie down and wait for the monster to eat me and cuts the monster down . 

Just because one can stare into the abyss and it can gaze back does not make you and the abyss one and the same.

A monster is someone whose opinions you so strongly disagree with that you fear them or despise them.  Jews, witches, commies, Nazis, SJWs-- these are all monsters to someone.  Nobody here is supporting the idea of white supremacy, or underestimating the danger they pose to the society.  We are saying that when you take the law into your own hands, or into the hands of whatever mob you most identify with, YOU are the monster.

It's better to have a few noble victims in the name of peace than to become a society of millions of cowardly mob-driven monsters.

But in your case, I think it's more than that.  I think it's ironic that you come from a native background-- once thought savage and uncivilized and most cruelly treated at the hands of settlers; and that you, now smelling yourself to be in the moral majority, are so willing to throw away the humanity and rights of human beings which YOU consider backward and uncivilized.

There's also a pragmatic reason to allow people you dislike the right to speak freely.  It keeps them in the open.  It lets you see them coming a mile away.  Do we really need a bunch of pissed-off, disenfranchised Southerners building home-made bombs in their basements because blowing up government buildings or black churches is the only way for them to be heard?

BULLSHIT......

While most would prefer to obey the law, reacting to those seeking to destroy pluralism is not the same as wanting to end pluralism.

There is no equal in this.

(September 5, 2017 at 9:15 am)Brian37 Wrote: BULLSHIT......

While most would prefer to obey the law, reacting to those seeking to destroy pluralism is not the same as wanting to end pluralism.

There is no equal in this.

Okay, let's take the groups at Charlottesville. How would you identify who we need to take collective action against, and what would you recommend we do to them? MY solution is: protest against their ideas, record their actions, and press for political and legal action if they break the law. And by "they," I mean each individual.

Your turn.

The only thing that can stop a bad violent mob is a good violent mob....

(September 5, 2017 at 9:29 am)bennyboy Wrote:

(September 5, 2017 at 9:15 am)Brian37 Wrote: BULLSHIT......

While most would prefer to obey the law, reacting to those seeking to destroy pluralism is not the same as wanting to end pluralism.

There is no equal in this.

Okay, let's take the groups at Charlottesville.  How would you identify who we need to take collective action against, and what would you recommend we do to them?  MY solution is: protest against their ideas, record their actions, and press for political and legal action if they break the law.  And by "they," I mean each individual.

Your turn.

In the moment, those whom reacted to a sicko running over people were RIGHT. But long term allowing sick shit like open carry with weapons of war along with calls to end pluralism are shouting fire in a theater and an incitement to violence. The KKK and Neo Nazis got arrested and sued and financially broken by the courts throughout the 70s and 80s and were put back under the rocks they should stay under.

Yes protest, and protest peacefully when possible. But do not equate those defending pluralism to those wanting to end pluralism. 

Again, 45 is not politics as normal, and as long as he dog whistles to those sicko fascists, it isn't as easy as you want to make it out to be. It was no different for blacks in the 60s trying to end segregation. They were fighting not only on the political scale through peaceful protest, but also literally defending their lives against those who wanted to murder them.

Politically pressure has to be put on the GOP, because 45 wont stop, but the GOP needs to reject the politics of vilification. But no, please do not equate those who defend Heather Heyer as being the same as those who want to end pluralism. reality is messy and not as simple as you would like it to be.

(September 5, 2017 at 7:31 am)Anomalocaris Wrote: Again, freedom is not a suicide pact.

It's a good thing I didn't say it is, then.

When we allot to government the power to decide what is and is not acceptable political speech, we may be sure that that power will be abused.

---

(September 5, 2017 at 5:59 am)Tizheruk Wrote:

Quote:He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss also gazes into you.

I have better one . Beware he who tolerates monsters and allows them to grows and prosper in your mist under the misguided notion of confusing them with ducks or sheep. And declaring because we treat the ducks and sheep one way we must do the same to the monsters . And as the monsters plot and scheme and make there contempt for all we stand for right in front of us . Some say we don't want to be  monsters and lie down on the ground and wait to be devoured because it's not something a monster do. Others say i'm not a monster but I refuse to lie down and wait for the monster to eat me and cuts the monster down . 

Just because one can stare into the abyss and it can gaze back does not make you and the abyss one and the same.

... says the guy who would deny freedom to others because their views don't accord with his own.

Don't think for a moment I'm confused about who these people are and what they represent, or that I don't stand against them; I do. But unlike you, I'm unwilling to remove rights from them simply because they make me uncomfortable.

When they commit crimes, I'm all for going after them with the power of the government. Until then, it is better using the power of better ideas. Simply silencing them using governmental force does one thing: it feeds their narrative of persecution. It would actually legitimize their complaints.