(November 3, 2017 at 8:16 pm)Godscreated Wrote:

(November 3, 2017 at 2:21 pm)Succubus Wrote: An estimated 50% of pregnancies are spontaneously terminated ~three weeks after conception. What happens to all those souls? Are they recycled or do they evaporate in a puff of logic?

That doesn't even qualify for an answer, especially since it's been discussed many many times before.

GC

Of course it qualifies as an answer. The fact we miscarry is just another example of what a shitty designer God must be. And since God is defined as a PERFECT designer but the evidence is that he is NOT, then, he doesn't exist.

(November 3, 2017 at 5:42 pm)Godscreated Wrote: What could an atheist possibly know about the will of God?

GC

Why the fuck would a christer presume to know?!?

We understand far more about your fairy tales than you understand about the real world. Get over yourself.

(November 3, 2017 at 6:26 pm)Hammy Wrote: Why did God allow people to be born at all?

Before people were born, everything was perfect. In fact, before the universe was created by him, everything was perfect.

I mean, assuming God exists and he's perfect. He had no need to create anything. He was fully self-sufficent. And too perfect to get bored or desire anything. If God really existed there wouldn't be a universe for him to make, there would be no point in it. No point in anything. Time wouldn't even need to pass. God would just be God, the perfect being, nothing else would be required.

The whole concept of a perfect being that makes an imperfect universe because he felt imperfect boredom and resembles humans in some way, is fucking stupid as fuck. It couldn't be more obviously written by humans if it tried.

This.

The idea that a being who can construct an entire universe actually did it so he could spend eternity with a bunch of glorified monkeys who behaved the way he likes is so fucking asinine, it's hilarious.

And people kill each other over this shit.

From God On Trial again:

Quote:Jacques (François Guétary): How many stars are there in the Universe, do you think? Excuse me, but, uh, before... (chuckles softly) ...before I died, I was a physicist in Paris. There are one hundred thousand million stars in our Galaxy. Just in our Galaxy. And did God make all those stars?

Schmidt (Stephen Dillane): Most certainly. The prophet Amos tells us...

Jacques: What for?

Schmidt: Excuse me?

Jacques: He made one hundred thousand million stars in our Galaxy locally. How many of them have planets, we don't know. And yet, his whole attention is focused on one little planet right down on the edge of an outer spiral. And not even with the whole planet, no. Just with the Jews. This man, who made one hundred thousand million stars, signed a contract with the Jews. Just the Jews. And not even all of the Jews. No, no, no, because Jews like me don't count. So tell me this. If he loved the Jews so much, why did he make anything else? Why didn't he fill the Universe with Jews instead of stars? What's the point?

Schmidt: We don't know the point. It seems amazing to me, too, that in the whole universe, he should choose us.

Jacques: It's not amazing! It's mad! It's simply incorrect! Newborn babies think they are the centre of the Universe. They think they make milk by sucking. They think the world vanishes when they close their eyes. They are... they are wrong. In the Middle Ages, men thought the Sun went round the Earth. They... they were wrong. It's an illusion caused by where you happen to be standing at the time. And it's the same with God. The same! So think. Please, just think!

(November 3, 2017 at 9:24 pm)Godscreated Wrote: No the point can't be moot, you made an accusation and need to stand behind it with some sort of proof, I take it this is a dodge though.
I never said that God didn't know what would happen, God is eternal (omnipresent) and has lived through all eternity, He has no beginning and no end and has always known all things. God being eternal means He has existed in all times and places all the time.

Well the point is moot for an atheist how could it be otherwise?
So if god always knows all things how could he not have created the world exactly as it was, if he knew humans would sin and the majority go to hell, and then went ahead and created them anyway, then that had to be his purpose. Unless you are are saying he both knew and was caught by surprise.
But your reply did not answer my question which was 'why did god allow people to be born after the fall'?

Quote:I know the verse quite well and understand it's meaning and the way you used it in your last post made no sense, it wasn't relevant to my post. By the way you posted the wrong verses.

Of course it's relevant, isn't it what Christians use all the time when they come across questions either they cannot or are not comfortable answering, if you don't know why not simply say so instead of a hand wave of 'god knows best' ?

Quote:Of coarse we do, we understand it's meaning and it's truth. I did not say I knew God's entire purpose and if you would learn to comprehend what you read you would have known this. I didn't use that verse nor insinuate it, you are the one who brought it up completely out of context of the discussion.

Fair enough you don't know all of gods purpose.

Quote:God wants to show all that love is greater than sin and without the continuation of the creation that wouldn't be possible.

possibletarian Wrote:And the net result is the majority of people who have ever lived going to hell to suffer for eternity, that makes no sense at all.


  It makes perfect sense, people like you reject the love God has for you, so hell is the destination for rejection, you choose it and God gives you your choice.

Why does it make sense to carry on creating people (giving them life or a soul at birth) if you know they are going to suffer for eternity ?, this must be his purpose if he knows already, you think that is logical ?

Quote:Again I study the Bible, I'm not like you who goes around spouting what you want to be true.

I don't think any of it is true, well regarding spiritual claims that is, so it's up to you if you are making a claim to provide a sound reason to believe, but again that does not answer my question.

Quote:Your not interested in why I believe, if you were you would ask relevant questions instead of criticizing what Christians write. You don't listen you're here to jabber your jaw like the rest of the atheist here.

Actually I am very interested why you believe, to me you may as well believe in Peppa Pig. The creations story of the fall is so obviously made up. Having said that I used to be a Christian so I know what it's like to have your head full of this nonsense and have to go through excruciating mental gymnasts to make everything align with what I believed.

Quote:Me hang on, it's you who needs to hang on I think this conversations going to fast for you. Slow down, read and comprehend what is being said to you, please. It gets tiring repeating what's already been plainly said. I stated I know some of what God's plans are, because I'm part of them, also, I take Isaiah 55:8-9. I study the Bible to understand what God will reveal to me.

Yes but how do you distinguish delusion from reality? many people from many religions make similar claims as you do.
It still does not answer my question though.

Quote:I said we can't know it all, you are a typical atheist who has no idea what you are talking about.

On what ?

Quote:You think you are smart and logical but you show Christians what you do not know and that is a tremendous amount.

Actually I was a Christian for many years, but have since become untangled from religious thought and belief, it really is like coming into the light.

Quote:You've yet to ask a relevant question and you seem to be enjoying making fun of God, beware.

Then if my post wasn't relevant why then did you attempt to answer it ?
How can you make fun of a non existent god ? No if I am making fun, it's because of the metal gymnastics that theists pull
Oh and I have no fear of non existent gods or of you.

Quote:He is showing His love is greater that sin to all His creation, at the time of judgement no one will have an argument against Him.
Not hardly, God didn't cause the pain and suffering, Adam and Eve got it started and sinful man has continued till this very day.

Of course god caused it, didn't he throw them out of the garden, and curse them with death for doing what he knew they would do anyway, yet still creating them ? 
And this is just the point of the original post, if god knew this would happen, then why make it that way?
If it took him by surprise then why not simply stop others being born, given that Christians believe souls are created at birth.

Quote:You keep saying the same thing and you have received answers yet you will not listen,

Oh I'm all ears, I'm just waiting for a rational answer.

Quote:you continue to ignore what is being said. Let me put it to you this way, it's God's plan not yours,

Bingo, here we go god's mysterious plan

Quote:he can let in go as he desires because it is His plan, no one can stop it and no one has the right to criticize His plan because no one can duplicate it, it all belongs to Him,

Yes that's why we ask questions about why people believe such stuff

Quote:He is eternal and you can't seem to understand what it means that God is eternal. He is the only being who will ever be eternal.

Oh I understand what eternal is, I just don't believe in a god

Quote:People are not innocent because you say so, so you need to forget this,

Of course not, but i was not claiming innocence for myself, just that an as yet un-created soul which has absolutely no sin, the question I was asking is why did god bring them into a sinful world when he knew they would suffer for eternity. I didn't ask why did Adam and Eve suffered (even though i think it's a fairy tale) , I asked why god allowed others to be born after the fall.

Quote:God says all are guilty of sin and deserve to die. The offenses (sins) are against the Holy and Righteous God who created all things and in that a payment is due, unless you come to know Christ for who He is.

Did you hear the angels singing when you wrote that?
I already know Christ for who he is, a mythical character in one of many holy books

Quote:God has never be dependent on anything nor anyone, He was living an eternity before creation without anyone else anywhere. We know this from the Bible, you would too if you would just read it instead of spouting what you hear others saying.

Quote:This is where you show your lack of biblical knowledge and you should at least become familiar with the basics before trying to argue against God and His word.

Okey dokey

Quote:God the Father, God the Son (Jesus) and God the Holy Spirit are all the same God revealed in three persons, yes it's possible for God.

Yes so you say another fantasy

Quote:The angels were created during the creation week, when we do not know but Bible study reveals this to us.

Where?

Quote:God didn't need any companionship He was totally satisfied with who He is and would have enjoyed eternity without us or the angels. God did not create fallible man, God created the perfect man and woman all others have been conceived through man and woman, it is part of God's plan. I'm not even sure how you got to God needing companionship. Man was created for God to love and to love God, for a relationship with Him so we could know and enjoy the wonders of God.

Okay lets drop the god needing companionship bit then and just accept that god created humanity simply because he did, but that leaves us with even a worse scenario he create being he knew would not obey him, and many would spend eternity in hell suffering.. for what purpose ?

What makes you thing Adam and Eve were perfect? they sinned for their own selfish reasons, well according to the bible, the question is why did god allow that then to continue?

To say that it was to enjoy the wonders of god, well frankly god isn't all that wonderful after all, his purpose and plan was for the majority to not enjoy his wondrous presence.

Quote:You have no point and what I'm saying is truth to my points.

The sentence makes no sense

Quote:I was speaking of personal suffering. God doesn't promise Christians that life will go smooth for us, we will suffer through those things you mentioned the difference is that God will be with Christians to bring them peace, understanding and help.

Help with what ? tell that to the Christians of Africa whose children die daily from starvation and disease despite prayers, almost as if.. as if.. there is no god at all

Quote:We are to also be there for those who are suffering through all things, unfortunately most atheist despise Christians so much they will not accept our help, kinda' dumb if you ask me.

What help ?

(November 4, 2017 at 12:18 am)KevinM1 Wrote:

(November 3, 2017 at 6:26 pm)Hammy Wrote: Why did God allow people to be born at all?

Before people were born, everything was perfect. In fact, before the universe was created by him, everything was perfect.

I mean, assuming God exists and he's perfect. He had no need to create anything. He was fully self-sufficent. And too perfect to get bored or desire anything. If God really existed there wouldn't be a universe for him to make, there would be no point in it. No point in anything. Time wouldn't even need to pass. God would just be God, the perfect being, nothing else would be required.

The whole concept of a perfect being that makes an imperfect universe because he felt imperfect boredom and resembles humans in some way, is fucking stupid as fuck. It couldn't be more obviously written by humans if it tried.

This.

The idea that a being who can construct an entire universe actually did it so he could spend eternity with a bunch of glorified monkeys who behaved the way he likes is so fucking asinine, it's hilarious.

And people kill each other over this shit.

Ha, I'm glad you agree.

And somehow your quotation and commenting on my post managed to get a lot more kudos than my post *hint hint to other posters* *hint hint*

(November 3, 2017 at 4:43 pm)Hammy Wrote: So when God told Adam and Eve not to touch the tree he was being a manipulative asshole because he knew they'd do it anyway, perhaps partly because of his own disingenuous reverse-psychology. Noted.

Amateur didn't know shit about females or children, that's for sure.  The very -last- thing you say to a girl if you don't want her to do something..is that she can't do it.  Eve started thinking about that apple the moment god said she couldn't have it.  It was an inevitability.

(November 5, 2017 at 12:19 am)Khemikal Wrote:

(November 3, 2017 at 4:43 pm)Hammy Wrote: So when God told Adam and Eve not to touch the tree he was being a manipulative asshole because he knew they'd do it anyway, perhaps partly because of his own disingenuous reverse-psychology. Noted.

Amateur didn't know shit about females or children, that's for sure.  The very -last- thing you say to a girl if you don't want her to do something..is that she can't do it.  Eve started thinking about that apple the moment god said she couldn't have it.  It was an inevitability.

I'm not a girl, and I would've gleefully eaten the apple out of spite.

My favorite part of that story is god warning them that they would die when they had no concept of death. I mean, the jokes start from the very first page. Someone needs to read the bible with a laugh track.

Good old dramatic irony.  That command was intended not for adam or for eve, but for the listener.  The listener was presumed to have an inkling that it would all go south.  After all, the listener wasn't living in the garden of eden..so -something- must have happened.  The characters tumble haplessly towards resolution as the audience enjoys their tragedy in third person omnipresent.

(November 3, 2017 at 7:16 pm)possibletarian Wrote: Then why not create spiritual beings like himself, after all isn't that the destination for those who believe ?

He did create spiritual beings - angels.

Quote:For me, yes,

So why do you focus so much on suffering in this world?

Quote:but as a species definitely not, firstly two thirds of the world do not subscribe to the Christian world view, and even of those that do many  the bible say many will not be considered real Christians.  Those that do not believe spent eternity in never ending torture suffering for the sins that god knew they would commit before they were even bought into existence. So I would say a net no.

So, the choice facing God was:

1. Create, which rewards those who love him, but punishes those who hate him or want nothing to do with him; or

2. Not create, which rewards those who hate him or want nothing to do with him (as they avoid eternal punishment), but punishes those who love him (as they miss out on eternal happiness.

Isn't it much more logical to reward your loved ones and punish your enemies, than the opposite?

---

(November 4, 2017 at 12:18 am)KevinM1 Wrote: This.

The idea that a being who can construct an entire universe actually did it so he could spend eternity with a bunch of glorified monkeys who behaved the way he likes is so fucking asinine, it's hilarious.

And people kill each other over this shit.

That people who claim it's a fairy tale spend valuable time discussing it is even more hilarious. And don't bother saying it's because of the real world impact of religious belief, as this site isn't changing jack shit.