(November 9, 2017 at 11:18 am)AtlasS33 Wrote: But Hitler and Stalin did not create a paradise. Both failed miserably in even securing a high standards of living for all their citizens.

Allah doesn't seem to be doing so hot on that count either.  

Quote:God created evil, but he also created good, and orders only with the good. He doesn't ask people to commit immoralities, he doesn't command with evil. Evil is a created possibility; but it's always caused by those creatures that choose it.

Magic books say otherwise. Whose authority, in this regard...should we defer to? Yours, or magic books?

Quote:Human dictators only commit selfish evil, and really incapable of something "that good" like creating mercy or paradise.

So, if Hitler had built a nice shiny city, maybe paved the streets with the powdered skulls of dead jews.....all that evil would have been a-okay?  

See, again, you're explicitly confirming the PoE.  Allah is evil, but you're looking forward to all the gingersnaps in the sky.

(November 8, 2017 at 6:25 pm)Khemikal Wrote:

(November 8, 2017 at 5:47 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: That's the Sunni and Shiite tradition, that is based on the Hadith and the saying of the clergy of each sect.

Technically it's just one of them.  The other side says that baby girls buried alive go to hell along with the one who buried them alive.  Save

Yes; you can only say that if you believe in chaotic books like Hadith books.
Base your search on the Quran alone; and you won't be able to say things like this.

Quote:

Quote: Wrote:The Quran doesn't say a thing about kids being punished.

-doesn't say they aren't...and as we've already established, allah does whatever the fuck allah wants.  If he wants to send a kid to hell because he doesn't like the look of the kid, or because it's thursday...

It's your biased opinion about God that makes you assume what you assume.
There is no evidence for what you say. Why are you disbelieving, by saying there is no evidence for God, but bash religious sentences using the same analogy?

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(November 9, 2017 at 8:50 am)Mathilda Wrote: I want to ask the religionists here, does your own morality concur with those of your god?

Yes.

Some things are traits of God alone; like torture of the wicked, burning people who disbelieve in hell, doing whatever he wants and so many other things.
As a human, I don't have the right to that.

The sun for example, has the right to torture people with its heat. Wild cats have the right to hunt whatever; even humans. But humans don't have the right to hunt and kill without a reason.

God is not human. He is not even a creation like the sun or like light and darkness. He is something else.

(November 9, 2017 at 10:39 am)Whateverist Wrote:

(November 9, 2017 at 10:32 am)Khemikal Wrote: Ah, but we've establish that "in catholicism" is not an accurate indicator for what CL believes.  For example, she doesn't believe that people who die in mortal sin go straight to hell, that hell is eternal fire, or that people who go to hell have to stay in hell.

She thinks that at least some people who die in mortal sin...atheists the world over who hear and reject the word, and believers of other religions the world over who hear and reject the word..might get to call a mulligan on life and the state of their soul at death...and get into heaven.  She believes that being in hell relies on a continuous rejection of god.

It's conceivable that Hitler got a pass through the pearlies on any of these.

No doubt.  I mean once you stand before the face of god and realize His perfection, you'd realize "gosh, I shouldn't have gassed all those jews.  What the hell was I thinking?  But now I know what true perfection is, I choose that.  Lord, can I have that seat next to you?  Thanks."

I don't think it quite works that way. If you have a heart dark enough to kill innocent people and children, I don't think that can change in an instant, if at all.

I guess we can see into Hitlers heart after all.  

The notion that he might have believed that he was doing what he was doing for the good of his people, or even that god would approve of his slaughter of the hated jew...as was taught by the catholic church for centuries..eludes some.

Meanwhile:

Quote:Hey! Noah! I'm going to kill every man woman and child on earth, and all the animals too....except you and your brats and however many animals you can fit on a boat, so get to hammering.

-God.

(November 9, 2017 at 11:23 am)Khemikal Wrote:

(November 9, 2017 at 11:18 am)AtlasS33 Wrote: But Hitler and Stalin did not create a paradise. Both failed miserably in even securing a high standards of living for all their citizens.

Allah doesn't seem to be doing so hot on that count either.  

Quote:God created evil, but he also created good, and orders only with the good. He doesn't ask people to commit immoralities, he doesn't command with evil. Evil is a created possibility; but it's always caused by those creatures that choose it.

Magic books say otherwise.  Whose authority, in this regard...should we defer to?  Yours, or magic books?  

Quote:Human dictators only commit selfish evil, and really incapable of something "that good" like creating mercy or paradise.

So, if Hitler had built a nice shiny city, maybe paved the streets with the powdered skulls of dead jews.....all that evil would have been a-okay?  

See, again, you're explicitly confirming the PoE.  Allah is evil, but you're looking forward to all the gingersnaps in the sky.

No. The Quran says exactly this; I quoted it a lot but you don't seem to read.
Here it is; again;thank you for making me recite the verses of the book; I swear it's an honor:

Quote:Sura 67, The Quran:
( 2 )   [He] who created death and life to test you [as to] which of you is best in deed - and He is the Exalted in Might, the Forgiving -

Quote:Sura 23, The Quran:
( 80 )   And it is He who gives life and causes death, and His is the alternation of the night and the day. Then will you not reason?

Quote:Sura 2, The Quran:
( 9 )   They [think to] deceive Allah and those who believe, but they deceive not except themselves and perceive [it] not.
( 10 )   In their hearts is disease, so Allah has increased their disease; and for them is a painful punishment because they [habitually] used to lie.

Can Hitler create mercy between parents and children? can he create sympathy ?
All I knew he is capable to create is destruction and propaganda, and lots and lots of nationalistic sick mentalities.

(November 9, 2017 at 12:01 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(November 9, 2017 at 10:39 am)Whateverist Wrote: No doubt.  I mean once you stand before the face of god and realize His perfection, you'd realize "gosh, I shouldn't have gassed all those jews.  What the hell was I thinking?  But now I know what true perfection is, I choose that.  Lord, can I have that seat next to you?  Thanks."

I don't think it quite works that way. If you have a heart dark enough to kill innocent people and children, I don't think that can change in an instant, if at all.

So, sorry if this sounds dickish, Abraham couldnt get into heaven in that case?

(November 9, 2017 at 12:52 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: No. The Quran says exactly this; I quoted it a lot but you don't seem to read.
Here it is; again;thank you for making me recite the verses of the book; I swear it's an honor:

Magic books say alot of things, and it's not really surprising to find that one of allahs superfans says complimentary things, but that means very little to me, I don;t have a crush on djinn.  I read what magic book says about god and what god thinks, and recognize it for the horrid shit it is, that doesn;t change just because there's some random joe in the desert who's head over heels for bloodgod.  I think you'll find that no matter how evil a person is, there's always someone who loves them.  Saddam was probably the apple of his mother's eye, if no one else.  

This doesn't answer the problem of evil, it simply affirms it, and comments on how deeply you, and the authors of magic book, are willing to love your fantasy abuser. Masochism is a thing, after all.

Quote:Can Hitler create mercy between parents and children? can he create sympathy ?
All I knew he is capable to create is destruction and propaganda, and lots and lots of nationalistic sick mentalities.

You're giving Hitler a short shrift while excusing your god...but neither makes what either did anything other than what it was.  The truly ironic part..is that Hitler, at least, exists, and so what good -and- what evil he accomplished is greater than what your imaginary god never did and doesn't do....... by default.

(November 9, 2017 at 10:50 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: He's probably in Hell for the hatred he had in his heart and for all the heinous, evil things he had done to millions of innocent people. But I'm sure I didn't need to say that.

I just want to be clear on what we're saying here.

The Holocaust, the Final Solution to the Jewish Question, was more Himmler's baby than Hitler's, while actualised by Heydrich. Hitler originally wanted the Jews forcibly removed from German controlled areas. As executive authority in that regime, was it more or less 'evil' to command such atrocities, or to allow them in the knowledge that he had the power to prevent them?

(November 9, 2017 at 2:14 pm)Cyberman Wrote:

(November 9, 2017 at 10:50 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: He's probably in Hell for the hatred he had in his heart and for all the heinous, evil things he had done to millions of innocent people. But I'm sure I didn't need to say that.

I just want to be clear on what we're saying here.

The Holocaust, the Final Solution to the Jewish Question, was more Himmler's baby than Hitler's, while actualised by Heydrich. Hitler originally wanted the Jews forcibly removed from German controlled areas. As executive authority in that regime, was it more or less 'evil' to command such atrocities, or to allow them in the knowledge that he had the power to prevent them?

I don't know that it's "less" evil. Maybe equal.

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(November 9, 2017 at 12:53 pm)Mr.Obvious Wrote:

(November 9, 2017 at 12:01 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I don't think it quite works that way. If you have a heart dark enough to kill innocent people and children, I don't think that can change in an instant, if at all.

So, sorry if this sounds dickish, Abraham couldnt get into heaven in that case?

What do you mean?

1. An ultimate evil that rewards it followers is still an ultimate evil 

2. God is massively selfish 

3. The ultimate tyrant creating what it rules no less makes it a tyrant 

4. Arbitrary definitions of good on god being will not do 

5. Allowing immoral acts is as evil as ordering them . And creating that which can do evil is itself evil.