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RE: Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?
November 17, 2017 at 7:20 am
(November 17, 2017 at 7:09 am)SteveII Wrote: (November 16, 2017 at 9:12 pm)KevinM1 Wrote: Isn’t it more accurate to say god loaned his son? I mean, he did get better a few days later.
Setting aside death by crucifixion, what was it like for an omniscient mind to physically bear all the sins of mankind past, present, and future all at the same time? When you think about it, God willing endured something unimaginable to us that would change him (by having the experience) in a less than positive way.
Well if it has an omniscient mind, it would have known what to expect wouldn't it?
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RE: Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?
November 17, 2017 at 8:21 am
(This post was last modified: November 17, 2017 at 8:28 am by Harry Nevis.)
(November 16, 2017 at 5:44 pm)SteveII Wrote: (November 16, 2017 at 5:13 pm)Khemikal Wrote: Oh...you misunderstand, it's not necessarily immoral for -him- to make the attempt, even doomed to failure as it always would have been..it's immoral for -you- to accept. Your imaginary friends moral agency isn't under scrutiny here..yours is. Glad to clear that up.
That the better man might lay his life down for your mortgage evading ass isn't exactly all that surprising. That you would would accept the death of the better man and think that this was good, otoh...is. That's the kind of idea that can only come from a person you can never turn your back on. The kind of person that would feed you to the wolves to save his own skin. The kind of person decidedly -unlike- the sacrifice in question.
You are making a category error (among other errors). Jesus was not a man so a comparison is silly. God himself came down to bridge the gap between his holiness and our sin. He is the only one that could have done that. We cannot even pay with our lives to make that happen (a debt is an incomplete metaphor). Accepting his offer in no way infers a lack of character, because paying your own way was never an option.
So we're born, through no fault of our own, with the burden of a debt we can't possibly repay. But the person that saddled us with this debt has a way out. Buying the cure from the poisoner.
(November 16, 2017 at 5:10 pm)alpha male Wrote: You haven't shown that accepting it is immoral. Jesus laid down his life four ours - why was it immoral for him to do so?
No, he didn't. He took the weekend off. You talk like it was equivalent to a mortal giving up their life.
(November 16, 2017 at 7:29 pm)SteveII Wrote: I believe the author of goodness "...so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him won’t perish but will have eternal life." Forgive me if I believe him and not an some random atheist on the internet with a warped understanding of the atonement.
LOL. So it's US that has a warped sense of atonement. Is there a dictionary that defines atonement as having someone else die to pay for a debt you never incurred?
That "author of goodness" crap almost had me snorting my coffee.
(November 17, 2017 at 7:09 am)SteveII Wrote: (November 16, 2017 at 9:12 pm)KevinM1 Wrote: Isn’t it more accurate to say god loaned his son? I mean, he did get better a few days later.
Setting aside death by crucifixion, what was it like for an omniscient mind to physically bear all the sins of mankind past, present, and future all at the same time? When you think about it, God willing endured something unimaginable to us that would change him (by having the experience) in a less than positive way.
Something changed a perfect being in a lees than positive way? He created the sin, and could choose any other way to wipe it out. Can't you see what a infantile story this is?
"The last superstition of the human mind is the superstition that religion in itself is a good thing." - Samuel Porter Putnam
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RE: Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?
November 17, 2017 at 9:20 am
(November 16, 2017 at 9:27 pm)Astreja Wrote: Worst. Economic. System. Ever.
No, if you're a sinner and acknowledge it it's a really great system.
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RE: Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?
November 17, 2017 at 9:29 am
And the broken record continues to spin...
Nay_Sayer: “Nothing is impossible if you dream big enough, or in this case, nothing is impossible if you use a barrel of KY Jelly and a miniature horse.”
Wiser words were never spoken.
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RE: Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?
November 17, 2017 at 9:54 am
(November 17, 2017 at 9:20 am)alpha male Wrote: (November 16, 2017 at 9:27 pm)Astreja Wrote: Worst. Economic. System. Ever.
No, if you're a sinner and acknowledge it it's a really great system.
Well, the chances of me doing that are zero.
Literally. I intend to go to my grave without ever falling into that ridiculous mindset.
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RE: Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?
November 17, 2017 at 10:00 am
(November 17, 2017 at 8:21 am)Harry Nevis Wrote: (November 16, 2017 at 5:44 pm)SteveII Wrote: You are making a category error (among other errors). Jesus was not a man so a comparison is silly. God himself came down to bridge the gap between his holiness and our sin. He is the only one that could have done that. We cannot even pay with our lives to make that happen (a debt is an incomplete metaphor). Accepting his offer in no way infers a lack of character, because paying your own way was never an option.
So we're born, through no fault of our own, with the burden of a debt we can't possibly repay. But the person that saddled us with this debt has a way out. Buying the cure from the poisoner.
(November 16, 2017 at 7:29 pm)SteveII Wrote: I believe the author of goodness "...so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him won’t perish but will have eternal life." Forgive me if I believe him and not an some random atheist on the internet with a warped understanding of the atonement.
LOL. So it's US that has a warped sense of atonement. Is there a dictionary that defines atonement as having someone else die to pay for a debt you never incurred?
That "author of goodness" crap almost had me snorting my coffee.
(November 17, 2017 at 7:09 am)SteveII Wrote: Setting aside death by crucifixion, what was it like for an omniscient mind to physically bear all the sins of mankind past, present, and future all at the same time? When you think about it, God willing endured something unimaginable to us that would change him (by having the experience) in a less than positive way.
Something changed a perfect being in a lees than positive way? He created the sin, and could choose any other way to wipe it out. Can't you see what a infantile story this is?
Now notice how you could have phrased all those comments as questions or in a discussion format. Instead all your comments are peanut-gallery, comprehension-deficient, condescending nonsense that somehow meets a need in your head. Thanks for the example of why I choose to unclutter my feed with your contributions.
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RE: Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?
November 17, 2017 at 10:05 am
(This post was last modified: November 17, 2017 at 10:06 am by The Grand Nudger.)
What is there to ask about, and what kind of responses do you give when asked questions? You feel that you've done something so terrible that the only way out is the death of another.
Simple, straightforward......still horrible, nothing left to wonder. Is there some detail or minutiae that will alter that summary?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?
November 17, 2017 at 10:56 am
(November 17, 2017 at 9:54 am)Astreja Wrote: Well, the chances of me doing that are zero.
Literally. I intend to go to my grave without ever falling into that ridiculous mindset.
I believe you. And to you, yes, I can see that it appears to be a bad system. From my POV you're letting your pride get in the way. And before you say that you don't believe, many atheists say that even with proof of god's existence they wouldn't change their mind, so it's still a point within discussion.
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RE: Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?
November 17, 2017 at 10:57 am
(This post was last modified: November 17, 2017 at 11:03 am by The Grand Nudger.)
You use the term pride as though it were a bad thing. Hard to see how it could be., if pride is keeping someone from accepting the death of another as atonement for their own crimes...that's moral fortitude working as intended. She should be proud.
Speaking of pride..I've asked this question before, this seems as good a place as any. Would any of the christians in this thread drive the nails into christ themselves?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?
November 17, 2017 at 11:19 am
(November 17, 2017 at 10:05 am)Khemikal Wrote: What is there to ask about, and what kind of responses do you give when asked questions? You feel that you've done something so terrible that the only way out is the death of another.
Simple, straightforward......still horrible, nothing left to wonder. Is there some detail or minutiae that will alter that summary?
Your point is not simple, it's simplistic (and I suspect intentionally so).
It has nothing to do with what I feel. Sin creates a barrier (because of God's essential holiness) and an obligation to satisfy (because of God's essential justice). The choice is to leave the barrier in place and pay for the consequences defined by God's justice OR accept that he has provided a method to remove each person's individual barrier and satisfy the justice. To be clear, absent outside help, there is nothing we are capable of doing that can remove the barrier and the only satisfaction of divine justice is our death. The only way both the barrier could removed and the satisfaction of justice could be accomplished is if God himself removed the barrier and satisfied the justice by paying for our sins prior to our death and imparting holiness on us in the process.
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