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Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?
RE: Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?
(November 17, 2017 at 7:09 am)SteveII Wrote:
(November 16, 2017 at 9:12 pm)KevinM1 Wrote: Isn’t it more accurate to say god loaned his son?  I mean, he did get better a few days later.

Setting aside death by crucifixion, what was it like for an omniscient mind to physically bear all the sins of mankind past, present, and future all at the same time? When you think about it, God willing endured something unimaginable to us that would change him (by having the experience) in a less than positive way.

I never tire of pointing out the absurdity of this concept of god's omniscience and the free will of his subjects. To begin with, an omniscient entity does not, cannot, have free will of its own, how can it? As you point out, god is aware of all happenings, past, present, and future. From this I can only conclude this god of yours is frozen in time. Can god change his mind? Of course he can't everything has already happened. So how in the blue frozen hell can this god of yours give his creation attributes that he does not, cannot, posses himself? If god is omniscient then by definition he can't be omnipotent.

I genuinely feel great pity for this omniscient god of yours. The planck second he came into being he was faced with the horrible realization.

I have no mouth, and I must scream.
It's amazing 'science' always seems to 'find' whatever it is funded for, and never the oppsite. Drich.
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RE: Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?
(November 17, 2017 at 8:10 pm)SteveII Wrote: [quote='LadyForCamus' pid='1658698' dateline='1510959473']

I feel like I'm not explaining my thoughts properly.

So, god is sitting around contemplating creating existence and people.  He, I dunno, imagines what he would like in a creation.  The instant he does so, he sees/understands exactly how the entire scenario is going to play out, including the choices and fates of every single human being who would end up existing.  Now that he understands how plan A will go, he has to make some decisions.  I'll posit some options below:

* Go forward with plan A anyway, knowing how many of his "children" he'll be damning to an eternity of suffering.

* Perhaps a plan B.  Same as plan A, minus hell.

* Plan C.  Don't go through with it at all, and save everyone's soul in an instant.

* Plan D.  Something else.  Anything else.  Make purple smurfs who are morally perfect and incapable of sin.  He's god; he can literally do anything.

But, God chooses plan A for us, doesn't he?  Where was our choice; our will in all of this?  We had none.  We were never meaningfully in control of our existence. God picked what he wanted for our souls out of an infinite number of possibilities, knowing how it would play out, and said, "this is the future I've chosen for you."  Please explain to me again, how are we free?

Quote:Plan A includes creating us with free will. This is important because it seems thinking, rational beings capable of choice, morality, and a real relationship between creator and creature seems to be the pinnacle of anything anyone could ever create--including God.

So, is god limited in his creative forces?  

Quote:Plan B is not possible. Holiness and justice are essential (couldn't have been any other way) to God. They are perfections. Sin (from A) creates the barrier because of his Holiness and a need to pay the penalty because of his justice.


So, god is not capable of thinking up a consequence that teaches his creation the error of his ways without damning him to eternal torture?  I mean, why was torture the only option?  I'm starting to feel like this god character is not as all-powerful as people allege he is.

Quote:Plan C -- God chose to create thinking, rational beings capable of choice, morality, and a real relationship between creator and creatures. I, for one am not going to whine that I should never have had existed and my wife and children shouldn't have existed because other people make the wrong choice. The potentially infinite goodness available to all, chosen by a minority does not make God's choice to create everything problematic from a logical nor a moral standpoint.

Billions of thinking, feeling, living, loving humans in the world, and you take no moral issue with the lot of them suffering in pain for a literal eternity, in many cases simply for the fact that they were raised with the "wrong" religion, or born in the wrong location?  These are the actions of an all-loving being?

I dunno, Steve.  Coming back to my original charge, each response to my hypothetical scenarios seems to imply either lack of ability or lack of will on the part of your god.

Quote:Yes, God chose plan A for us. I for one, am glad he did. He did NOT chose a future for us -- only that we had a future to chose. Listen, there is nothing illogical about any of this. You objection is on an emotional level. I understand that. But it really isn't the problem you imagine for Christianity.

It's certainly illogical when your god is supposedly omnibenevolent and omnipotent.  We, as a civilization, don't even torture serial killers for the remainder of their finite lives, lol.
Nay_Sayer: “Nothing is impossible if you dream big enough, or in this case, nothing is impossible if you use a barrel of KY Jelly and a miniature horse.”

Wiser words were never spoken. 
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RE: Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?
(November 17, 2017 at 9:32 pm)Succubus Wrote:
(November 17, 2017 at 7:09 am)SteveII Wrote: Setting aside death by crucifixion, what was it like for an omniscient mind to physically bear all the sins of mankind past, present, and future all at the same time? When you think about it, God willing endured something unimaginable to us that would change him (by having the experience) in a less than positive way.

I never tire of pointing out the absurdity of this concept of god's omniscience and the free will of his subjects. To begin with, an omniscient entity does not, cannot, have free will of its own, how can it? As you point out, god is aware of all happenings, past, present, and future. From this I can only conclude this god of yours is frozen in time. Can god change his mind? Of course he can't everything has already happened. So how in the blue frozen hell can this god of yours give his creation attributes that he does not, cannot, posses himself? If god is omniscient then by definition he can't be omnipotent.

I genuinely feel great pity for this omniscient god of yours. The planck second he came into being he was faced with the horrible realization.

I have no mouth, and I must scream.

There’s also the problem with an omniscient perfect mind being negatively affected by limited, temporary trauma.

Of course, I still haven’t heard a logical answer as to why a perfect being would create imperfect beings to begin with. There’s absolutely zero reason for god to create intelligent primates, test them on this mud ball, and then spend a blissful eternity with the ones who succeed. A bunch of trite word salad about god’s love and grace and goodness, but nothing that sufficiently answers the question. Which, for me, is pretty important. If worship is demanded of me, I want to ensure it’s justified.

It does provide ample chuckles, however.
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RE: Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?
Chuckles, aye. But at times bouts of abject despair that so many are infected with this mind virus. Christianity is the foulest pox god ever created.
It's amazing 'science' always seems to 'find' whatever it is funded for, and never the oppsite. Drich.
Reply
RE: Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?
(November 17, 2017 at 8:48 pm)possibletarian Wrote:
(November 17, 2017 at 8:10 pm)SteveII Wrote: It seems that creating thinking, rational beings capable of choice, morality, and a real relationship between creator and creature seems to be the pinnacle of anything anyone could ever create--including God. He wanted to create and share the joys of life, choice, love, relationship, redemption, and a potentially infinite future. I can't fault him for that--I'm kind of partial to my life. Your objection is emotionally based--there is not problem with the rationale. 

*It seems that God has made it clear to everyone at some point that he exists and should be sought after.* You don't need to have heard of Jesus or the cross. God will judge you on how you responded with the information you were given. 

NOTE: I haven't said this in a while: I always argue from my doctrinal positions. Others may have a different perspective.
Bold Mine*

How could you possibly know that ? He really has not made it clear to anyone, even Christians say they can offer no evidence.  When atheists ask 'why does god not make himself known'? and the counter claims is of course, well if that happened you would have to believe, and so loose your free will, which argument is it?

I think it's a legitimate question, simply claiming it as an emotional one answers little, if anything. To me it's an entirely logical one,  Would i bring people about that I knew would suffer for the sake of so called 'free will' , (assuming free will exists at all, which is against the current thinking) no i wouldn't, the argument is entirely logical.

Because the Bible says it. (Romans 1:18-20).

If you run across a Christian who says there is no evidence, they don't know what they are talking about. I imagine there are more Christians ignorant of evidence/doctrine /systematic theology than there are atheists in the world. 

Well, there was the time he made himself known pretty convincingly in the early first century. He also makes himself know in that there is something rather than nothing, and the something is pretty good. 

No, it is not a logical question. It's an argument from incredulity. "I can't imagine a God who would..." It is not "It is not logically possible that God had a good reason for creating the world".
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RE: Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?
(November 16, 2017 at 12:21 am)possibletarian Wrote:
(November 15, 2017 at 11:26 pm)Godscreated Wrote:  Someone else took it upon their self to answer all those questions, read my answers to that post, I'm not answering the same questions over and over. I made a statement that I was tired of answering the same things over and over because others wanted to inject their selves into a conversation that was never meant for them. This is the results and will continue to be from now own.
GC

Maybe that's because you answer don't really answer anything, spouting wrath and hellfire and claiming you have a hotline to god to understand what we cannot, answers nothing.

That doesn't address a thing I said in the above post, so it's not me that's saying nothing. I've answered all your questions it's not my fault you do not like the truth and it makes me wonder why you even keep asking questions. You have in your head the answers you want to hear, unfortunately they are not the truth.

GC

(November 16, 2017 at 1:54 am)Astreja Wrote:
(November 15, 2017 at 11:26 pm)Godscreated Wrote: I made a statement that I was tired of answering the same things over and over because others wanted to inject their selves into a conversation that was never meant for them.

Wot?

Seriously?

GC, this is a forum, not your living room.  You don't get to say whether or not a conversation is "meant for" anyone.

I can reply as I see fit. IN my living room If someone starts to answer questions for someone else they will be asked to wait their time or butt out. When I'm in a conversation with someone and the answers and questions are meant specifically for that someone I do not need for someone else to answer for them nor pretend I addressed the one butting in. So bug off and go bother someone else.

GC
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
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RE: Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?
(November 17, 2017 at 6:10 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: Let me try this again. 😛

Firstly, I have no vested interest in complaining about either of those things, because I don't believe either actually exists.  I am merely pointing out that even if I assume for the sake of the argument all of this is true, the narrative still doesn't make sense.  God decided our lives for us the second he made the conscious decision to poof humanity into existence, despite seeing ahead of time how many of us would be damned.  In what way then, are we free?  And why, if we aren't truely free, should we deserve eternity in hell for making the wrong "choice"?

I'm not arguing in this discussion that we're free. I'm taking the lack of free will to its logical conclusion. If our every thought and action was predetermined in that second, then we don't actually exist in any meaningful sense.

An analogy would be a program mimicking human thoughts running through a computer. You could have the same kinds of things running through it as we experience, the joys, the sufferings - ponderings about how it came to be, complaints about its lot - everything. But, since this was all written in advance by another being, that computer is not a being itself. It has no right to only have happy thoughts. You could take the computer and toss it in a fire and no one would condemn you for so doing.

If you interpret omniscience such that it predetermines our every thought and precludes free will, then a person is no more than that computer program.
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RE: Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?
(November 18, 2017 at 1:55 am)Godscreated Wrote:
(November 16, 2017 at 12:21 am)possibletarian Wrote: Maybe that's because you answer don't really answer anything, spouting wrath and hellfire and claiming you have a hotline to god to understand what we cannot, answers nothing.

Quote:That doesn't address a thing I said in the above post, so it's not me that's saying nothing. I've answered all your questions it's not my fault you do not like the truth and it makes me wonder why you even keep asking questions. You have in your head the answers you want to hear, unfortunately they are not the truth.

GC

Fair enough, but why do you believe what you say to be truth, if all you are doing is repeating in a thoughtless parrot fashion what is written elsewhere ?
What means have you used to test if it is truth or not ?

(November 18, 2017 at 12:05 am)SteveII Wrote:
(November 17, 2017 at 8:48 pm)possibletarian Wrote: Bold Mine*

How could you possibly know that ? He really has not made it clear to anyone, even Christians say they can offer no evidence.  When atheists ask 'why does god not make himself known'? and the counter claims is of course, well if that happened you would have to believe, and so loose your free will, which argument is it?

I think it's a legitimate question, simply claiming it as an emotional one answers little, if anything. To me it's an entirely logical one,  Would i bring people about that I knew would suffer for the sake of so called 'free will' , (assuming free will exists at all, which is against the current thinking) no i wouldn't, the argument is entirely logical.

Quote:Because the Bible says it. (Romans 1:18-20).

And you know the bible to be true how ?

Quote:If you run across a Christian who says there is no evidence, they don't know what they are talking about. I imagine there are more Christians ignorant of evidence/doctrine /systematic theology than there are atheists in the world.

Why do you believe your doctrine to be true, as opposed to perhaps other Christians doctrines, or other faiths, why are yours specifically truthful ?

Quote:Well, there was the time he made himself known pretty convincingly in the early first century. He also makes himself know in that there is something rather than nothing, and the something is pretty good.

Well yes lots of people believed in the first century, but we are talking of a time when people stoned people for ludicrous offences, floods were either a result of witchcraft or gods wrath etc.
And how does something rather than nothing make god known, i mean outside of dated philosophical arguments, can nothing even exist ?
You really don't need to invent a god to be sure that things exist you simply have to accept that they do, to answer 'I don't know instead' of making up a god is by far a superior answer. Something from nothing implies that you have knowledge that there ever was nothing, which of course is not knowledge you could possibly have.


Quote:No, it is not a logical question. It's an argument from incredulity. "I can't imagine a God who would..." It is not "It is not logically possible that God had a good reason for creating the world".

Oh I don't believe in god that's you, and it's not an argument, it's a question, one that you only seem capable of answering from a book that you cannot even give a good reason to believe and further more that you defend regardless of how illogical. It is based on pure belief that it is in fact the word of one of many gods.
Again simply asserting a argument or question is emotional does not make it so.

(November 18, 2017 at 1:55 am)Godscreated Wrote:
(November 16, 2017 at 1:54 am)Astreja Wrote: Wot?

Seriously?

GC, this is a forum, not your living room.  You don't get to say whether or not a conversation is "meant for" anyone.

I can reply as I see fit. IN my living room If someone starts to answer questions for someone else they will be asked to wait their time or butt out. When I'm in a conversation with someone and the answers and questions are meant specifically for that someone I do not need for someone else to answer for them nor pretend I addressed the one butting in. So bug off and go bother someone else.

GC

Of course you can reply as you see fit , but don't be surprised when others do likewise.
'Those who ask a lot of questions may seem stupid, but those who don't ask questions stay stupid'
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RE: Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?
(November 18, 2017 at 1:15 pm)possibletarian Wrote: Fair enough, but why do you believe what you say to be truth, if all you are doing is repeating in a thoughtless parrot fashion what is written elsewhere ?
What means have you used to test if it is truth or not ?
  I never give thoughtless answers, nor ask thoughtless questions, that would be a waste of peoples time something I do not believe in.
The means I use is living a relationship with God and watching Him work through me and keep His promise in ways that are unmistakable. Would they make sense to you know, why, because they are things meant for me through our personal relationship. You might think you're hearing the same old stuff you've heard before, ever consider that Christians are actually experiencing God and He is doing for them as He promised He would do for all His children.
GC
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
Reply
RE: Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?
(November 16, 2017 at 10:19 am)Harry Nevis Wrote:
[hide Wrote:Godscreated pid='1657631' dateline='1510802788']



I've been led by the holy God and creator of the universe, you own the other hand have been led by man and show the self righteousness of one who cares more about the self than the One who gave you life.[/hide]


I haven't read one of your posts in months and intend to never read another, as the Bible tells me, wipe the dust off your feet and leave those who reject you, with you I have. You continue to impress your friends here if it pleases you but with me you're wasting your time. But then I believe you are doing the same with your life.

GC
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
Reply



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