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RE: Arguments Against Creator God
December 1, 2017 at 11:27 pm
(This post was last modified: December 1, 2017 at 11:28 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
If there were a god, "cosmos" would include that as well. Dryly, it already does...just not as believers imagine it to.
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RE: Arguments Against Creator God
December 2, 2017 at 1:05 am
(This post was last modified: December 2, 2017 at 1:08 am by Banned.)
(December 1, 2017 at 10:53 pm)Grandizer Wrote: No, please don't. Thank you in advance.
That's alright, I'll remain silent.
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RE: Arguments Against Creator God
December 2, 2017 at 1:50 am
(December 1, 2017 at 10:58 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: [quote pid='1666685' dateline='1512101088']
The Impossibility of Timeless Creation
Quote:If the Creator God exists, then the Creator God supposedly created time itself. But the act of creating, or doing anything for that matter, already implies a passage of time occurring. To create time is to create time within time. Therefore, time has always been and could not have been created. Therefore, the Creator God did not create time. Therefore, negating the classical definition of the Creator God, the Creator God does not exist (if the Creator God is supposed to create everything else in existence, including time).
Light of time and eternity are related in that, time get's it's reality from eternity. Eternity is absolute foreverness, but time didn't always exist, and this has been proven many times on these boards.
The premise is right, it requires passage of time to create, but it also happens to be that his will is an act of creation with initializing time. So it happens together, creating and time, time doesn't need to proceed it.
[/quote]
Like a subset of existence within existence?
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RE: Arguments Against Creator God
December 2, 2017 at 2:34 am
(This post was last modified: December 2, 2017 at 2:37 am by Ravenshire.)
(December 1, 2017 at 10:36 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: which we know hasnt always been here
Actually, we don't know the universe hasn't always been here. We only know that the universe in it's current form had a beginning. There are models for a cyclic universe that fit the evidence. They are not as popular or well supported as they have been in the past, but they are by no means disproven.
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RE: Arguments Against Creator God
December 2, 2017 at 7:47 am
(December 2, 2017 at 1:50 am)wallym Wrote: (December 1, 2017 at 10:58 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: [quote pid='1666685' dateline='1512101088']
The Impossibility of Timeless Creation
Light of time and eternity are related in that, time get's it's reality from eternity. Eternity is absolute foreverness, but time didn't always exist, and this has been proven many times on these boards.
The premise is right, it requires passage of time to create, but it also happens to be that his will is an act of creation with initializing time. So it happens together, creating and time, time doesn't need to proceed it. Like a subset of existence within existence?
[/quote]
That is one way of seeing it!
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RE: Arguments Against Creator God
December 2, 2017 at 7:50 am
(December 1, 2017 at 2:33 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: (December 1, 2017 at 12:04 am)Grandizer Wrote: Many theists argue that God is the most reasonable explanation for the universe because it doesn't make sense otherwise. If there is no God, then how can something physical like the universe come to be? According to them, there has to be some unphysical "power", unbounded by the laws of nature, that led to the existence of the physical. And they are convinced no other explanation is good enough to match the apparent plausibility of their own position.
I'd like to hear your theory/guess/explanation as to how the first ever physical thing came into existance.
What makes you think there was a first?
Perhaps physical processes of one kind or another have always been.
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RE: Arguments Against Creator God
December 2, 2017 at 6:15 pm
(December 1, 2017 at 11:12 pm)Grandizer Wrote: (December 1, 2017 at 10:36 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I'm still confused as to what the cosmos are that you refer to. When i google it, it just says its another word for universe (which we know hasnt always been here). You say it's everything in existence. So am i a cosmo?
As to your question, no, because honestly I don't understand them. Right now im just curious about your beliefs.
I'm sorry, but I don't know how better to explain what I mean by the Cosmos. The Cosmos is everything in existence, excluding God. Yes, people have varying definitions of this and that, but I'm trying to help you out here by giving you one definition that I adhere to. No, you're not the whole Cosmos. You are a part of it. Using some basic mathematics set terminology, the Cosmos is the set, and we are the various elements of it.
About this local universe that you and I are observing: actually, it's not necessarily true what you're saying. With the Big Bang, the expansion of the universe was started, but the theory doesn't actually state/imply that this universe had a beginning to its existence.
Well clearly I haven't always been here. So which part of the cosmos do you believe has always been here?
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
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RE: Arguments Against Creator God
December 2, 2017 at 9:01 pm
(This post was last modified: December 2, 2017 at 9:13 pm by GrandizerII.)
(December 2, 2017 at 1:05 am)Starhunter Wrote: (December 1, 2017 at 10:53 pm)Grandizer Wrote: No, please don't. Thank you in advance.
That's alright, I'll remain silent.
You're free to keep posting. If I see anything in your post worth responding to, I will still respond.
(December 2, 2017 at 6:15 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: (December 1, 2017 at 11:12 pm)Grandizer Wrote: I'm sorry, but I don't know how better to explain what I mean by the Cosmos. The Cosmos is everything in existence, excluding God. Yes, people have varying definitions of this and that, but I'm trying to help you out here by giving you one definition that I adhere to. No, you're not the whole Cosmos. You are a part of it. Using some basic mathematics set terminology, the Cosmos is the set, and we are the various elements of it.
About this local universe that you and I are observing: actually, it's not necessarily true what you're saying. With the Big Bang, the expansion of the universe was started, but the theory doesn't actually state/imply that this universe had a beginning to its existence.
Well clearly I haven't always been here. So which part of the cosmos do you believe has always been here?
Under eternalism, actually, you have. If eternalism is true, every time-instance of you is eternal because every moment in time is eternal. But that said, you have no obligation to adhere to the exact same position I do. A lot of it is speculation, after all, but the key point here is that there is logical validity to it (AFAIK), and that there are certain versions of God that just aren't logically possible.
(December 1, 2017 at 11:27 pm)Khemikal Wrote: If there were a god, "cosmos" would include that as well. Dryly, it already does...just not as believers imagine it to.
That's true. I only separate God from the Cosmos for the sake of going along with the typical theist's notion of a God that is separate from everything else in existence, and to show how logically problematic it is to separate God from time and space and all that.
(December 1, 2017 at 11:27 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: Apologies CL; I see you and Grand are already into this, lol.
No, by all means, continue to have an exchange with CL, if you want. Better you than me, lol.
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RE: Arguments Against Creator God
December 2, 2017 at 9:44 pm
(December 2, 2017 at 9:01 pm)Grandizer Wrote: (December 2, 2017 at 1:05 am)Starhunter Wrote: That's alright, I'll remain silent.
You're free to keep posting. If I see anything in your post worth responding to, I will still respond.
(December 2, 2017 at 6:15 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Well clearly I haven't always been here. So which part of the cosmos do you believe has always been here?
Under eternalism, actually, you have. If eternalism is true, every time-instance of you is eternal because every moment in time is eternal. But that said, you have no obligation to adhere to the exact same position I do. A lot of it is speculation, after all, but the key point here is that there is logical validity to it (AFAIK), and that there are certain versions of God that just aren't logically possible.
(December 1, 2017 at 11:27 pm)Khemikal Wrote: If there were a god, "cosmos" would include that as well. Dryly, it already does...just not as believers imagine it to.
That's true. I only separate God from the Cosmos for the sake of going along with the typical theist's notion of a God that is separate from everything else in existence, and to show how logically problematic it is to separate God from time and space and all that.
(December 1, 2017 at 11:27 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: Apologies CL; I see you and Grand are already into this, lol.
No, by all means, continue to have an exchange with CL, if you want. Better you than me, lol.
Grand, I don't understand your response to me. My existence began in 1986 when my dad's sperm and my mom's egg came together and formed my DNA, which prior to that moment, did not exist. That, we do have proof of.
What do you mean by eternalism?
I don't understand you saying that I have always existed. It makes no logical sense to me.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
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RE: Arguments Against Creator God
December 2, 2017 at 10:11 pm
(December 2, 2017 at 9:44 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: (December 2, 2017 at 9:01 pm)Grandizer Wrote: You're free to keep posting. If I see anything in your post worth responding to, I will still respond.
Under eternalism, actually, you have. If eternalism is true, every time-instance of you is eternal because every moment in time is eternal. But that said, you have no obligation to adhere to the exact same position I do. A lot of it is speculation, after all, but the key point here is that there is logical validity to it (AFAIK), and that there are certain versions of God that just aren't logically possible.
That's true. I only separate God from the Cosmos for the sake of going along with the typical theist's notion of a God that is separate from everything else in existence, and to show how logically problematic it is to separate God from time and space and all that.
No, by all means, continue to have an exchange with CL, if you want. Better you than me, lol.
Grand, I don't understand your response to me. My existence began in 1986 when my dad's sperm and my mom's egg came together and formed my DNA, which prior to that moment, did not exist. That, we do have proof of.
What do you mean by eternalism?
I don't understand you saying that I have always existed. It makes no logical sense to me.
When you say it makes no logical sense, what you really mean is that it is not intuitive to you, not that you have been able to use logic to debunk it. Again, intuition and logic are two different things.
Anyway, eternalism is philosophy to do with the nature of time, and it has implications regarding the nature of reality itself as a result. If you want to know more about it, you'll have to do some Googling, but the gist of it is that time is not how we normally intuit it. Time, under eternalism, doesn't flow from past to present to future. Rather, it is just simply a coordinate (or dimension) of a "frozen" reality that presently contains not just all the whereabouts and locations in this present instance of time, but also those of past and future instances of time. They all exist simultaneously and have always been. That's what I mean when I say you have always existed.
You are looking at it from the angle of the "present-you" and assuming an actual flow of time. When I say we have always existed, I am looking at it from the angle of a hypothetical (and illogical) "outside observer", observing a 4D (or more) sort of unbounded "block" that is called "reality" or "cosmos".
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