Roads making an appeal to motivation .

(December 29, 2017 at 5:52 pm)Grandizer Wrote:

(December 29, 2017 at 5:41 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: I don't think that this represents most peoples positions who are against abortion.

I do have empathy for women in this situation.  And I do think that we need to help and support them.  

However, I don't think that the reasons given, justify the intentional killing of a person.

CL has chosen to ignore my question. Can you answer what I asked her on previous page or so? What is it you want accomplished?

I certainly do not support later term abortions, or even here at 10-13 weeks, about the earliest they can detect downs syndrome (a fetus if you like).  
Personally I think that we should err on the side of not killing a human being (so I tend to be conservative).  However the sites I'm looking at, are saying that you aren't even really considered pregnant, until late in the second week, to the third week after conception.  Here, I'm not so sure.

How about you?

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(December 29, 2017 at 8:18 pm)pocaracas Wrote:

(December 29, 2017 at 7:26 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: That makes no sense to me at all.  Why would you allow or condone an unjustified killing of a human being for any reason?  I also do not follow or agree with the sentiment that making it illegal is saying anything about their lives being worth less.  It is saying it is wrong to kill the baby, and you will be held accountable if you do so.   Do you think this line of reasoning would hold under any other context.  I also don't think that putting that type of worth, is correct at all, when talking about killing another person.  Would you make the same decision if the child was a toddler, and the parent was threatening to kill either the child or them both?

And if the help and support is not there, then shouldn't we be fighting for that?

The help and support that is not there, would have been closer, if the politicians in charge were more socialist and less capitalist/liberal, don't you think?
Instead, in the states, for some reason, the Republicans/capitalists/liberals are associated with the religious... The core of Christianity, family and helping each other, is completely ignored by those politicians... but people still follow them... And the same thing happens in Europe.

As for worth, a woman can (usually) easily have another child. A child can't easily become a parent. Ultimately, it's about gene perpetuation. If a policy is to be enforced, it should be to favor the woman's life.
Since (or while) no structures exist to support women with unplanned pregnancies, the abortion is a necessity that is felt by some of those women. And they will, if the practice is illegal, perform them clandestinely.
Legal, or illegal, the baby dies. I think this fact is what many in the anti-abortion side don't realize.
Do we, as a society, also want the mother to die? Or have complications arise that will then tax the health care system?

So it seems that you agree, that it is wrong to kill these human beings.  But because some people may try to take things upon themselves and cause further damage or death, it should be legal.  Is this correct?    You reason that this causes more deaths, but doesn't making abortion legal also cause many more deaths?    I have trouble believing some of the numbers I hear for abortions, but they are staggering.  Someone may be injured or die, trying to break into my house to steal my stuff.  However I don't think that this is a reason to make it legal for them to take my stuff (people do it anyway).  Nor am I saying that my stuff is worth more than their life by saying it should be illegal.

Now if you want to talk about care that is needed by those who feel they have no choice.... I'm all for it.  Educate them on what options are available, and make more available.  Yes.
I don't think that finances are really a question, any more than if you are saying that they should be able to kill their toddler, because they cannot handle the burden anymore.

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(December 29, 2017 at 8:58 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote:

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(December 29, 2017 at 7:26 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: I disagree and don't think that is what they where intending to convey... and I'm not ignoring the scriptures, I was ignoring you, because I didn't think your intentions where noble.... there's a difference.  But if you would really like to discuss those verses, make a thread, and we'll discuss just that.

You're so transparent it's fucking ridiculous.  You won't answer Vorlon because of his alleged "intentions."  You won't answer me because of my alleged intentions.  It's obvious to everyone and their grandmother that the reason you don't want to answer has everything to do with you, and nothing to do with the intentions of Vorlon and myself.  Answer.  Don't answer.  I don't care.  But stop wasting our time with these pathetic lies.

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So I'm questioning your motivation, and you are questioning mine.... fair enough.   However I'm not going to take this thread down a rabbit trail for you.  As I said, if it is really a concern for you... start a thread.  If not.... goodbye....

I'm not playing this game though.

(December 22, 2017 at 8:46 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Way to go Ohio. No, we should not kill babies who have down syndrome. Or spina bifida.

I can't tell if this is sarcasm.

Anyway, the OP wasn't talking about killing babies. He/she was talking about abortion. Isn't there a difference?

(December 29, 2017 at 9:13 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote:

(December 29, 2017 at 5:52 pm)Grandizer Wrote: CL has chosen to ignore my question. Can you answer what I asked her on previous page or so? What is it you want accomplished?

I certainly do not support later term abortions, or even here at 10-13 weeks, about the earliest they can detect downs syndrome (a fetus if you like).  
Personally I think that we should err on the side of not killing a human being (so I tend to be conservative).  However the sites I'm looking at, are saying that you aren't even really considered pregnant, until late in the second week, to the third week after conception.  Here, I'm not so sure.

How about you?

I think it's pretty clear where I stand. I'm pro-choice, and leave all the decision-making regarding where to draw the line between legal and illegal abortion to the lawmakers and women, since it's none of my business and I am neutral about fetuses.

But back to you, are you for a complete ban on abortion after three weeks after conception? Do you think extreme cases should be considered, such as in case of rape or high risk to woman's health/wellbeing? Do you believe abortion banning will make things better for society overall?

These are not meant to be loaded questions, so answer with as many details and clarifications as you like. I want to know you've thought well enough about the implications and considered women's plight in your ponderings on abortion.

(December 29, 2017 at 11:38 pm)Grandizer Wrote:

(December 29, 2017 at 9:13 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: I certainly do not support later term abortions, or even here at 10-13 weeks, about the earliest they can detect downs syndrome (a fetus if you like).  
Personally I think that we should err on the side of not killing a human being (so I tend to be conservative).  However the sites I'm looking at, are saying that you aren't even really considered pregnant, until late in the second week, to the third week after conception.  Here, I'm not so sure.

How about you?

I think it's pretty clear where I stand. I'm pro-choice, and leave all the decision-making regarding where to draw the line between legal and illegal abortion to the lawmakers and women, since it's none of my business and I am neutral about fetuses.

But back to you, are you for a complete ban on abortion after three weeks after conception? Do you think extreme cases should be considered, such as in case of rape or high risk to woman's health/wellbeing? Do you believe abortion banning will make things better for society overall?

These are not meant to be loaded questions, so answer with as many details and clarifications as you like. I want to know you've thought well enough about the implications and considered women's plight in your ponderings on abortion.

I point out even if he does believe that cases of rape or high risk are valid. He immediately runs into the issue of saying that fetuses created out of rape are less worthy of living then those that were not despite the notion both are innocent . As for risk which is more risky abortion done in a hospital or clinic or a back door abortion .

(December 29, 2017 at 9:13 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote:

(December 29, 2017 at 8:18 pm)pocaracas Wrote: The help and support that is not there, would have been closer, if the politicians in charge were more socialist and less capitalist/liberal, don't you think?
Instead, in the states, for some reason, the Republicans/capitalists/liberals are associated with the religious... The core of Christianity, family and helping each other, is completely ignored by those politicians... but people still follow them... And the same thing happens in Europe.

As for worth, a woman can (usually) easily have another child. A child can't easily become a parent. Ultimately, it's about gene perpetuation. If a policy is to be enforced, it should be to favor the woman's life.
Since (or while) no structures exist to support women with unplanned pregnancies, the abortion is a necessity that is felt by some of those women. And they will, if the practice is illegal, perform them clandestinely.
Legal, or illegal, the baby dies. I think this fact is what many in the anti-abortion side don't realize.
Do we, as a society, also want the mother to die? Or have complications arise that will then tax the health care system?

So it seems that you agree, that it is wrong to kill these human beings.  But because some people may try to take things upon themselves and cause further damage or death, it should be legal.  Is this correct?   

Correct.

(December 29, 2017 at 9:13 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: You reason that this causes more deaths, but doesn't making abortion legal also cause many more deaths?

The statistics say that the number of abortions go down a few years after they're made legal.
http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/#PT

I only looked into the Portuguese and Italian cases... Traditionally Catholic countries.
But I'm pretty certain that the scenario repeats for most others.

(December 29, 2017 at 9:13 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote:    I have trouble believing some of the numbers I hear for abortions, but they are staggering. 

Too many... And many are teens.
With a flat out ban on abortions, those teens become lifelong parents.

(December 29, 2017 at 9:13 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: Someone may be injured or die, trying to break into my house to steal my stuff.  However I don't think that this is a reason to make it legal for them to take my stuff (people do it anyway).  Nor am I saying that my stuff is worth more than their life by saying it should be illegal.

Lifelong parenthood makes this analogy a bit faulty, doesn't it?

(December 29, 2017 at 9:13 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: Now if you want to talk about care that is needed by those who feel they have no choice.... I'm all for it.  Educate them on what options are available, and make more available.  Yes.
I don't think that finances are really a question, any more than if you are saying that they should be able to kill their toddler, because they cannot handle the burden anymore.

I believe that finances (or the perceived finances) still play a role in quite a few of the people who decide to abort.

As for support, I'm all for it too.
Education to minimize (or ideally eradicate) teen pregnancies. Clearly, whatever has been done in the bible belt states has worked against this, so maybe it's time to implement whatever has been working in Bangladesh, no?
Adults sometimes need to spend the final months of pregnancy without work, without stress, and off their feet. Who is going to keep their jobs like this?
And, after birth, in Europe it's common for the mother to have 3 months of paid leave. Some countries even stretch it out to a whole year. But, after that, if you want your job back... How can you expect it to be there for you, when you return? Not to mention daycare costs... If more than half your income goes into daycare, something's wrong, no?
Education, some people use it as contraception. Teach them what really happens and add a fee to each abortion... Perhaps one that rises exponentially with each abortion... All the while providing pamphlets and mini-courses on proper contraceptive methods. Make people take small tests and sign them to make sure they've learned something.

All the while not shunning those who still don't know, those who saw their contraceptive method fail, those who were raped, etc...

(December 30, 2017 at 6:59 am)pocaracas Wrote:

(December 29, 2017 at 9:13 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: So it seems that you agree, that it is wrong to kill these human beings.  But because some people may try to take things upon themselves and cause further damage or death, it should be legal.  Is this correct?   

Correct.

(December 29, 2017 at 9:13 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: You reason that this causes more deaths, but doesn't making abortion legal also cause many more deaths?

The statistics say that the number of abortions go down a few years after they're made legal.
http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/#PT

I only looked into the Portuguese and Italian cases... Traditionally Catholic countries.
But I'm pretty certain that the scenario repeats for most others.

(December 29, 2017 at 9:13 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote:    I have trouble believing some of the numbers I hear for abortions, but they are staggering. 

Too many... And many are teens.
With a flat out ban on abortions, those teens become lifelong parents.

(December 29, 2017 at 9:13 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: Someone may be injured or die, trying to break into my house to steal my stuff.  However I don't think that this is a reason to make it legal for them to take my stuff (people do it anyway).  Nor am I saying that my stuff is worth more than their life by saying it should be illegal.

Lifelong parenthood makes this analogy a bit faulty, doesn't it?

(December 29, 2017 at 9:13 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: Now if you want to talk about care that is needed by those who feel they have no choice.... I'm all for it.  Educate them on what options are available, and make more available.  Yes.
I don't think that finances are really a question, any more than if you are saying that they should be able to kill their toddler, because they cannot handle the burden anymore.

I believe that finances (or the perceived finances) still play a role in quite a few of the people who decide to abort.

As for support, I'm all for it too.
Education to minimize (or ideally eradicate) teen pregnancies. Clearly, whatever has been done in the bible belt states has worked against this, so maybe it's time to implement whatever has been working in Bangladesh, no?
Adults sometimes need to spend the final months of pregnancy without work, without stress, and off their feet. Who is going to keep their jobs like this?
And, after birth, in Europe it's common for the mother to have 3 months of paid leave. Some countries even stretch it out to a whole year. But, after that, if you want your job back... How can you expect it to be there for you, when you return? Not to mention daycare costs... If more than half your income goes into daycare, something's wrong, no?
Education, some people use it as contraception. Teach them what really happens and add a fee to each abortion... Perhaps one that rises exponentially with each abortion... All the while providing pamphlets and mini-courses on proper contraceptive methods. Make people take small tests and sign them to make sure they've learned something.

All the while not shunning those who still don't know, those who saw their contraceptive method fail, those who were raped, etc...

I also point out that the rate of illegal abortions is fuzzy but the damage is evident . Legal abortions are safer bar none .

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Quote:Someone may be injured or die, trying to break into my house to steal my stuff.  However I don't think that this is a reason to make it legal for them to take my stuff (people do it anyway).  Nor am I saying that my stuff is worth more than their life by saying it should be illegal.

That analogy is not equitable to abortion

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Quote:Now if you want to talk about care that is needed by those who feel they have no choice.... I'm all for it.  Educate them on what options are available, and make more available.  Yes. 

I don't think that finances are really a question, any more than if you are saying that they should be able to kill their toddler, because they cannot handle the burden anymore.

Of course finances are a question . And again this analogy is not the same as abortion . Seriously stop making analogies you suck at it .

(December 29, 2017 at 5:45 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote:

RoadRunner79 Wrote:However if you are going to define life, by breathing through the lungs, I did get a funny picture of some disgruntled atheists wife, waiting from some poor husbands sleep apnia to make him stop breathing long enough, that she can stab him and it wouldn't be murder!

It was the beginning of human life being defined based on what the Bible has to say about it. Presumably the Bible is what's relevant in how Christians define the beginning of human life. The funny pictures you get in your head are irrelevant.

Actually, I know a few atheists who are pro life. They don't regard the Bible in its relevance to the beginning of human life. Their assertion is that the science behind the argument for abortion is a perversion that's corrupted by political and social agendas. Terms like, tissue, lump of cells, parasite, are used by pro abortionists to devalue human life in its earliest stages
to make the abortion procedure more palatable to the duped masses and to erase any guilt of ending a life that has done no wrong other than being the target of an unwanted pregnancy.

(December 29, 2017 at 11:38 pm)Grandizer Wrote:

(December 29, 2017 at 9:13 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: I certainly do not support later term abortions, or even here at 10-13 weeks, about the earliest they can detect downs syndrome (a fetus if you like).  
Personally I think that we should err on the side of not killing a human being (so I tend to be conservative).  However the sites I'm looking at, are saying that you aren't even really considered pregnant, until late in the second week, to the third week after conception.  Here, I'm not so sure.

How about you?

I think it's pretty clear where I stand. I'm pro-choice, and leave all the decision-making regarding where to draw the line between legal and illegal abortion to the lawmakers and women, since it's none of my business and I am neutral about fetuses.

But back to you, are you for a complete ban on abortion after three weeks after conception? Do you think extreme cases should be considered, such as in case of rape or high risk to woman's health/wellbeing? Do you believe abortion banning will make things better for society overall?

These are not meant to be loaded questions, so answer with as many details and clarifications as you like. I want to know you've thought well enough about the implications and considered women's plight in your ponderings on abortion.

I think that such unjustified killing is always wrong, even in difficult circumstances such as a rape. Similarly, if they had the baby, but then after a year or two the decided that it was too much emotion stress would you let them dispose of it then?
In the unlikely situations, where they must save the woman or lose them both, then yes, it is difficult, but I think that the choice is to save who you can. But that is an entirely different scenario, than killing someone for some of the horrible reasons that people have abortions.

Ah, Christians and their shameless hypocrisy