(March 25, 2018 at 12:39 am)vulcanlogician Wrote: If he does, I'm pretty much done with this.

Don't feel bad thou . You were super patient with him.

(March 25, 2018 at 1:33 am)He lives Wrote:

(March 24, 2018 at 10:17 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote:

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YES WE DO! I read the link you dropped. Half of it was irrelevant, the other half presented a very shaky case. Did you bother to read the article that Jor linked a page or so back? 

Here are some highlights...

https://infidels.org/library/modern/keit...s.html#pam

Why don't you read the article in the above link and see if you think it makes a good/bad attempt to debunk Reynolds' NDE? I read your article (and watched your video). Why don't you give us your opinion on a skeptical assessment?

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I read the skeptical assessment. Keith Augustine compared the audio plugs to earbuds which are worn to hear music while listening to what is happening around a person. I do not believe that is an accurate assumption. The audio clicks were at 100 decibels and the ear plugs fit tightly into the ears. I believe we can indeed take the doctor at his word that Pam could not hear what was going on around her with her physical ears. Pam described not only the tool (bone saw) and the cutting tips but also the case that they were in. In my opinion I do not believe that she could have ever guessed that the bone saw would have had more than one blade or perhaps two. I know I wouldn't have known that if I hadn't seen it for myself. This is why I believe that this NDE is evidence of the spirit.

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(March 25, 2018 at 1:31 am)drfuzzy Wrote:

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"we can figure it out if we put forth the effort"  --  what the hell, are you 12 years old?  Have you STUDIED church history?  Yeah right.  2000+ years and apparently NOBODY has put forth enough effort to stop people from killing each other over whose interpretation of the "sacred texts" is most special to their imaginary friend.  What a pile of crap.

Here's my perspective of the wholly babble, you ignorant egotistical waste-of-oxygen troll:
Ewww.  Quoting from a book that promotes genocide, misogyny, rape, slavery, abortion, infanticide, theocracy, tribalism, magical thinking . . . eww.  
How DARE you?  God - LOL.   Your God doesn't exist.  And you are so craven and ignorant that you completely dodge my reasonable question by not answering it at all, but by quoting that reprehensible pile of crap book.

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HERE'S THE QUESTION TROLL, just in case you were too illiterate to understand it:  Why are there so many different "interpretations" of a book that was supposedly written by an omniscient deity who wants to get his message understood by humanity?  It wants us to understand, right?  Romans 14:11, right?  It's all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving, and omnipresent, right?  So why can't it communicate?  Why does it allow humans to kill each other over their "interpretations" of its so-called message?  Why is it less capable at communication than the average 10-year-old?

bow the knee lol.  The god described in the bible is not worth a second's worship.  It is the most evil concept humankind has ever invented.

Here is the answer in case you can not comprehend what I said. If you want to understand why there are so many interpretations you have to put forth some effort. However I can't see you being able to figure it out for yourself or with help. You are more likely to follow erroneous teachings.

Dodged the question troll.  Again.  (Of course.)  Why is the Bible so spectacularly unclear?  Why does your "god" suck so spectacularly at communication?  You believe this creature not only MADE humans, but the entire universe . . . billions upon billions of galaxies.  Yet its supposedly "called to the ministry" mouthpieces can't agree on what the book (either written or inspired by god, depending upon the sect) SAYS.  

A book which, I unfortunately still have memorized.  I called myself xtian for over 40 years, to my great shame.  I have read the entire Bible, it's a big reason I'm now an atheist.

"you have to put forth some effort"  - A book that supposedly is the answer to keeping a "soul" from eternal torture is deliberately obtuse, unclear, and can only be understood if you glean hidden messages from the text through reading, meditation, and prayer. Uh-huh.  Imagine if textbooks and recipes worked like that.  2 + 2 = 17 if you pray about it hard enough.  You believe that the vast majority of humans that have ever lived on this planet are going to fry forever, but that's ok because only the group that pulled the RIGHT meaning out of the magic grimoire are worthy of heaven.  "put forth some effort"  That's unbelievably sick and vicious.  It's tribal and sociopathic magical "we're special and they're not" thinking.

I understand why there are so many interpretations.  The book was written by ignorant bronze-age men who wanted power over others, and wrote down old fables to scare people into compliance.  The bible has been used to support racism, slavery, genocide, rape, and, of course, war.  You can make it say whatever you want it to say.

But, since you think that your oh-so-loving sky daddy will fry you forever if you doubt your magic book for one second, you are absolutely incapable of questioning it, aren't you?  
You are completely incapable of putting any of your beliefs under scrutiny, but you seem to think you are qualified to come here and try to "educate" people.

Any omnipotent and omniscient entity can speak - CLEARLY - for itself, in any place, at any time, to any people anywhere - without the need for a human to speak FOR it.  So Why is the Bible so spectacularly unclear?  Why does your "god" suck so spectacularly at communication?

Jeff has a speech impediment, or a cognitive disability, or both.

(March 25, 2018 at 3:47 pm)Khemikal Wrote: Jeff has a speech impediment, or a cognitive disability, or both.

A stronger case can be made for God in that regard . . . .

What can I say, Vor..I'm dropping pearls for the swine.

(March 25, 2018 at 4:40 pm)Khemikal Wrote: What can I say, Vor..I'm dropping pearls for the swine.

When fate hands you swine, you pull out the pearls.  Others would just make a nice roast ham.

(March 25, 2018 at 3:43 pm)drfuzzy Wrote:

(March 25, 2018 at 1:33 am)He lives Wrote:

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I read the skeptical assessment. Keith Augustine compared the audio plugs to earbuds which are worn to hear music while listening to what is happening around a person. I do not believe that is an accurate assumption. The audio clicks were at 100 decibels and the ear plugs fit tightly into the ears. I believe we can indeed take the doctor at his word that Pam could not hear what was going on around her with her physical ears. Pam described not only the tool (bone saw) and the cutting tips but also the case that they were in. In my opinion I do not believe that she could have ever guessed that the bone saw would have had more than one blade or perhaps two. I know I wouldn't have known that if I hadn't seen it for myself. This is why I believe that this NDE is evidence of the spirit.

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Here is the answer in case you can not comprehend what I said. If you want to understand why there are so many interpretations you have to put forth some effort. However I can't see you being able to figure it out for yourself or with help. You are more likely to follow erroneous teachings.

Dodged the question troll.  Again.  (Of course.)  Why is the Bible so spectacularly unclear?  Why does your "god" suck so spectacularly at communication?  You believe this creature not only MADE humans, but the entire universe . . . billions upon billions of galaxies.  Yet its supposedly "called to the ministry" mouthpieces can't agree on what the book (either written or inspired by god, depending upon the sect) SAYS.  

A book which, I unfortunately still have memorized.  I called myself xtian for over 40 years, to my great shame.  I have read the entire Bible, it's a big reason I'm now an atheist.

"you have to put forth some effort"  - A book that supposedly is the answer to keeping a "soul" from eternal torture is deliberately obtuse, unclear, and can only be understood if you glean hidden messages from the text through reading, meditation, and prayer. Uh-huh.  Imagine if textbooks and recipes worked like that.  2 + 2 = 17 if you pray about it hard enough.  You believe that the vast majority of humans that have ever lived on this planet are going to fry forever, but that's ok because only the group that pulled the RIGHT meaning out of the magic grimoire are worthy of heaven.  "put forth some effort"  That's unbelievably sick and vicious.  It's tribal and sociopathic magical "we're special and they're not" thinking.

I understand why there are so many interpretations.  The book was written by ignorant bronze-age men who wanted power over others, and wrote down old fables to scare people into compliance.  The bible has been used to support racism, slavery, genocide, rape, and, of course, war.  You can make it say whatever you want it to say.

But, since you think that your oh-so-loving sky daddy will fry you forever if you doubt your magic book for one second, you are absolutely incapable of questioning it, aren't you?  
You are completely incapable of putting any of your beliefs under scrutiny, but you seem to think you are qualified to come here and try to "educate" people.

Any omnipotent and omniscient entity can speak - CLEARLY - for itself, in any place, at any time, to any people anywhere - without the need for a human to speak FOR it.  So Why is the Bible so spectacularly unclear?  Why does your "god" suck so spectacularly at communication?

I will answer your question, but I doubt very much that you will like the answer. The earth we live on is a testing area. It is a place of learning and a place to increase our faith. We all volunteered to take the test because of the opportunity of growth it presented to us. In order for the test to be fair and accurate we had to forget our past. The test criteria is about how we live our lives. Will we love each other? Will we help each other? Will we be charitable? Will we be honest? Will we be humble? Will we do the right thing? Are we tolerant of others? We will be judged according to our knowledge or our lack thereof. I believe the Bible is quite clear about these things. I don't dwell on the negative. I say accentuate the positive. There is great satisfaction in doing good.

(March 25, 2018 at 6:32 pm)He lives Wrote:

(March 25, 2018 at 3:43 pm)drfuzzy Wrote: Dodged the question troll.  Again.  (Of course.)  Why is the Bible so spectacularly unclear?  Why does your "god" suck so spectacularly at communication?  You believe this creature not only MADE humans, but the entire universe . . . billions upon billions of galaxies.  Yet its supposedly "called to the ministry" mouthpieces can't agree on what the book (either written or inspired by god, depending upon the sect) SAYS.  

A book which, I unfortunately still have memorized.  I called myself xtian for over 40 years, to my great shame.  I have read the entire Bible, it's a big reason I'm now an atheist.

"you have to put forth some effort"  - A book that supposedly is the answer to keeping a "soul" from eternal torture is deliberately obtuse, unclear, and can only be understood if you glean hidden messages from the text through reading, meditation, and prayer. Uh-huh.  Imagine if textbooks and recipes worked like that.  2 + 2 = 17 if you pray about it hard enough.  You believe that the vast majority of humans that have ever lived on this planet are going to fry forever, but that's ok because only the group that pulled the RIGHT meaning out of the magic grimoire are worthy of heaven.  "put forth some effort"  That's unbelievably sick and vicious.  It's tribal and sociopathic magical "we're special and they're not" thinking.

I understand why there are so many interpretations.  The book was written by ignorant bronze-age men who wanted power over others, and wrote down old fables to scare people into compliance.  The bible has been used to support racism, slavery, genocide, rape, and, of course, war.  You can make it say whatever you want it to say.

But, since you think that your oh-so-loving sky daddy will fry you forever if you doubt your magic book for one second, you are absolutely incapable of questioning it, aren't you?  
You are completely incapable of putting any of your beliefs under scrutiny, but you seem to think you are qualified to come here and try to "educate" people.

Any omnipotent and omniscient entity can speak - CLEARLY - for itself, in any place, at any time, to any people anywhere - without the need for a human to speak FOR it.  So Why is the Bible so spectacularly unclear?  Why does your "god" suck so spectacularly at communication?

I will answer your question, but I doubt very much that you will like the answer. The earth we live on is a testing area. It is a place of learning and a place to increase our faith. We all volunteered to take the test because of the opportunity of growth it presented to us. In order for the test to be fair and accurate we had to forget our past. The test criteria is about how we live our lives. Will we love each other? Will we help each other? Will we be charitable? Will we be honest? Will we be humble? Will we do the right thing? Are we tolerant of others? We will be judged according to our knowledge or our lack thereof. I believe the Bible is quite clear about these things. I don't dwell on the negative. I say accentuate the positive. There is great satisfaction in doing good.

What religion are you? Mormon?

Increasing ones faith is pretty difficult when the odds of attending the right Christian church (assuming God ain't Muslim or Druid, or Hindu) is like 1 in up to 70,000 or so (assuming there aren't duplicate theologies among the unaffiliated churches and how could there be? They don't compare notes).

Faith testing zone . That's the lamest coop out ever written .