(June 12, 2018 at 12:52 pm)henryp Wrote:

(June 12, 2018 at 12:47 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote: The US has made concessions and gained nothing. 

There is no way to look at this other than a massive win for North Korea at the expense of the US world standing.

If Russia aren't paying Trump to do this then he is just an idiot.

What about the decreased risk of a nuclear war with North Korea?  That's a little something, no?

I'm not sure how you assess the level of risk of a nuclear war breaking out with North Korea. They still have nukes; we still have nukes. Some of the things one might hope to have achieved by making this concession (e.g., better information about their arsenal and capabilities; a timetable for inspectors to examine their development and testing sites) apparently weren't even on the table. And leaving aside nukes, they still have a metric fuck-ton of conventional arms aimed directly at Seoul, who apparently weren't all aware that we were going to end our joint exercises. North Korea conceded absolutely nothing, which is less than a little something, no?

I hope Trump's meeting with Kim is the first step in a process that brings true and lasting peace. But I don't think this meeting displayed our president's alleged negotiating prowess. We'll just have to see what can be achieved when serious negotiations between the experts take shape.

(June 12, 2018 at 12:52 pm)henryp Wrote:

(June 12, 2018 at 12:47 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote: The US has made concessions and gained nothing. 

There is no way to look at this other than a massive win for North Korea at the expense of the US world standing.

If Russia aren't paying Trump to do this then he is just an idiot.

What about the decreased risk of a nuclear war with North Korea?  That's a little something, no?

Ask me when Lil Kim actually gets rid of his nukes.  And for the record, I think having the WLB in control of a nuclear arsenal is far more scary.  He is actually stupid enough to use them.

(June 12, 2018 at 1:04 pm)Crossless2.0 Wrote:

(June 12, 2018 at 12:52 pm)henryp Wrote: What about the decreased risk of a nuclear war with North Korea?  That's a little something, no?

I'm not sure how you assess the level of risk of a nuclear war breaking out with North Korea. They still have nukes; we still have nukes. Some of the things one might hope to have achieved by making this concession (i.e., better information about their arsenal and capabilities; a timetable for inspectors to examine their development and testing sites) apparently weren't even on the table. And leaving aside nukes, they still have a metric fuck-ton of conventional arms aimed directly at Seoul, who apparently weren't all aware that we were going to end our joint exercises. North Korea conceded absolutely nothing, which is less than a little something, no?

I hope Trump's meeting with Kim is the first step in a process that brings true and lasting peace. But I don't think this meeting displayed our president's alleged negotiating prowess. We'll just have to see what can be achieved when serious negotiations between the experts takes shape.

Is it fair to say not holding war games off the coast of NK is a deescalation in terms of military tension?  Just like holding these peace talks, and NK and SK holding peace talks is also a deescalation in tension?  Remember, a year ago, people were legitimately worried NK was going to Nuke Hawaii or California.  

I think asking the US to stop practicing how they'd destroy North Korea is a reasonable request, in both countries best interests, and is just general common sense.  And if things don't work out, it's not like the US can't start back up.  

"Before we continue, can you stop acting like you're going to kill us at any second."
"Sure."

OMG!!! TURMP MAKES MASIVE CONCESION!  KIM PLAyng hiM FOR FOOL!

(that last part isn't necessarily you, just how the anti-trump perspective is framing what's happening)

(June 12, 2018 at 1:19 pm)henryp Wrote:

(June 12, 2018 at 1:04 pm)Crossless2.0 Wrote: I'm not sure how you assess the level of risk of a nuclear war breaking out with North Korea. They still have nukes; we still have nukes. Some of the things one might hope to have achieved by making this concession (i.e., better information about their arsenal and capabilities; a timetable for inspectors to examine their development and testing sites) apparently weren't even on the table. And leaving aside nukes, they still have a metric fuck-ton of conventional arms aimed directly at Seoul, who apparently weren't all aware that we were going to end our joint exercises. North Korea conceded absolutely nothing, which is less than a little something, no?

I hope Trump's meeting with Kim is the first step in a process that brings true and lasting peace. But I don't think this meeting displayed our president's alleged negotiating prowess. We'll just have to see what can be achieved when serious negotiations between the experts takes shape.

Is it fair to say not holding war games off the coast of NK is a deescalation in terms of military tension?  Just like holding these peace talks, and NK and SK holding peace talks is also a deescalation in tension?  Remember, a year ago, people were legitimately worried NK was going to Nuke Hawaii or California.  

For what it's worth, I never seriously worried that Hawaii or California might get nuked. The Kim regimes developed their nuclear capability precisely because they understand the logic of having such a deterrent, in light of their belief that we were itching to invade and overthrow them. Now they have their deterrent, so any talk of their anxiety over military exercises that have been going on for decades is, at best, beside the point.

Quote:Is it fair to say not holding war games off the coast of NK is a deescalation in terms of military tension?  Just like holding these peace talks, and NK and SK holding peace talks is also a deescalation in tension?  Remember, a year ago, people were legitimately worried NK was going to Nuke Hawaii or California.  

I think asking the US to stop practicing how they'd destroy North Korea is a reasonable request, in both countries best interests, and is just general common sense.  And if things don't work out, it's not like the US can't start back up.  

"Before we continue, can you stop acting like you're going to kill us at any second."
"Sure."

OMG!!! TURMP MAKES MASIVE CONCESION!  KIM PLAyng hiM FOR FOOL!

(that last part isn't necessarily you, just how the anti-trump perspective is framing what's happening)

The war games have been going on forever so painting that as the source of the tension is bullshit .It's real goal is to get America out of the region .As for restarting depends on if there is any political will to do so America does not have great history og going back to places it's left .

And he didn't just make a major concession he gave a major concession he gave a blank check on nothing but good faith . If Obama had done that people would be screaming the house down .Oh wait they did .

This has fuck all to do with being anti Trump it's dumb deal no matter who made it

(June 12, 2018 at 1:19 pm)henryp Wrote:

(June 12, 2018 at 1:04 pm)Crossless2.0 Wrote: I'm not sure how you assess the level of risk of a nuclear war breaking out with North Korea. They still have nukes; we still have nukes. Some of the things one might hope to have achieved by making this concession (i.e., better information about their arsenal and capabilities; a timetable for inspectors to examine their development and testing sites) apparently weren't even on the table. And leaving aside nukes, they still have a metric fuck-ton of conventional arms aimed directly at Seoul, who apparently weren't all aware that we were going to end our joint exercises. North Korea conceded absolutely nothing, which is less than a little something, no?

I hope Trump's meeting with Kim is the first step in a process that brings true and lasting peace. But I don't think this meeting displayed our president's alleged negotiating prowess. We'll just have to see what can be achieved when serious negotiations between the experts takes shape.

Is it fair to say not holding war games off the coast of NK is a deescalation in terms of military tension?  Just like holding these peace talks, and NK and SK holding peace talks is also a deescalation in tension?  Remember, a year ago, people were legitimately worried NK was going to Nuke Hawaii or California.  

I think asking the US to stop practicing how they'd destroy North Korea is a reasonable request, in both countries best interests, and is just general common sense.  And if things don't work out, it's not like the US can't start back up.  

"Before we continue, can you stop acting like you're going to kill us at any second."
"Sure."

OMG!!! TURMP MAKES MASIVE CONCESION!  KIM PLAyng hiM FOR FOOL!

(that last part isn't necessarily you, just how the anti-trump perspective is framing what's happening)

Surrender de-escalate tensions.   That is the only way giving up things in return for nothing deescalate things for two parties that had long history of treating everything as transactional.

Tomorrow we will be back to the exact spot we were 2 month ago. Kim will not give up anything that strengthen his control over the destiny of his regime. Trump will go back on his word because that is who he is.

What this summit would have accomplished is absolutely nothing other than add another nail in the coffin of American credibility and consistency, drive ametican further into shades as a feckless unreliable international partner for anything.

(June 12, 2018 at 1:19 pm)henryp Wrote:

(June 12, 2018 at 1:04 pm)Crossless2.0 Wrote: I'm not sure how you assess the level of risk of a nuclear war breaking out with North Korea. They still have nukes; we still have nukes. Some of the things one might hope to have achieved by making this concession (i.e., better information about their arsenal and capabilities; a timetable for inspectors to examine their development and testing sites) apparently weren't even on the table. And leaving aside nukes, they still have a metric fuck-ton of conventional arms aimed directly at Seoul, who apparently weren't all aware that we were going to end our joint exercises. North Korea conceded absolutely nothing, which is less than a little something, no?

I hope Trump's meeting with Kim is the first step in a process that brings true and lasting peace. But I don't think this meeting displayed our president's alleged negotiating prowess. We'll just have to see what can be achieved when serious negotiations between the experts takes shape.

Is it fair to say not holding war games off the coast of NK is a deescalation in terms of military tension?  Just like holding these peace talks, and NK and SK holding peace talks is also a deescalation in tension?  Remember, a year ago, people were legitimately worried NK was going to Nuke Hawaii or California.  

I think asking the US to stop practicing how they'd destroy North Korea is a reasonable request, in both countries best interests, and is just general common sense.  And if things don't work out, it's not like the US can't start back up.  

"Before we continue, can you stop acting like you're going to kill us at any second."
"Sure."

OMG!!! TURMP MAKES MASIVE CONCESION!  KIM PLAyng hiM FOR FOOL!

(that last part isn't necessarily you, just how the anti-trump perspective is framing what's happening)

Imagine Obama had done exactly what Trump has just done. How would you have reacted?

(June 12, 2018 at 1:39 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote:

(June 12, 2018 at 1:19 pm)henryp Wrote: Is it fair to say not holding war games off the coast of NK is a deescalation in terms of military tension?  Just like holding these peace talks, and NK and SK holding peace talks is also a deescalation in tension?  Remember, a year ago, people were legitimately worried NK was going to Nuke Hawaii or California.  

I think asking the US to stop practicing how they'd destroy North Korea is a reasonable request, in both countries best interests, and is just general common sense.  And if things don't work out, it's not like the US can't start back up.  

"Before we continue, can you stop acting like you're going to kill us at any second."
"Sure."

OMG!!! TURMP MAKES MASIVE CONCESION!  KIM PLAyng hiM FOR FOOL!

(that last part isn't necessarily you, just how the anti-trump perspective is framing what's happening)

Imagine Obama had done exactly what Trump has just done. How would you have reacted?

They would call Obama weak or soft like they have .

(June 12, 2018 at 1:26 pm)Crossless2.0 Wrote:

(June 12, 2018 at 1:19 pm)henryp Wrote: Is it fair to say not holding war games off the coast of NK is a deescalation in terms of military tension?  Just like holding these peace talks, and NK and SK holding peace talks is also a deescalation in tension?  Remember, a year ago, people were legitimately worried NK was going to Nuke Hawaii or California.  

For what it's worth, I never seriously worried that Hawaii or California might get nuked. The Kim regimes developed their nuclear capability precisely because they understand the logic of having such a deterrent, in light of their belief that we were itching to invade and overthrow them. Now they have their deterrent, so any talk of their anxiety over military exercises that have been going on for decades is, at best, beside the point.

Would you consider NK not test launching any missiles and releasing some hostages in the leadup to this summit a concession on their part?

(June 12, 2018 at 1:39 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote:

(June 12, 2018 at 1:19 pm)henryp Wrote: Is it fair to say not holding war games off the coast of NK is a deescalation in terms of military tension?  Just like holding these peace talks, and NK and SK holding peace talks is also a deescalation in tension?  Remember, a year ago, people were legitimately worried NK was going to Nuke Hawaii or California.  

I think asking the US to stop practicing how they'd destroy North Korea is a reasonable request, in both countries best interests, and is just general common sense.  And if things don't work out, it's not like the US can't start back up.  

"Before we continue, can you stop acting like you're going to kill us at any second."
"Sure."

OMG!!! TURMP MAKES MASIVE CONCESION!  KIM PLAyng hiM FOR FOOL!

(that last part isn't necessarily you, just how the anti-trump perspective is framing what's happening)

Imagine Obama had done exactly what Trump has just done. How would you have reacted?

Probably about the same!