If you support the notion that the Quran is "the word of God", you can't also expect people to accept your personal interpretation of it. It's a dangerous idea in the first place, for exactly this kind of reason.

The fact that the book even needs apologetics shows it has failed.

(July 7, 2018 at 11:44 am)AtlasS33 Wrote: If you ever took a close look to the Muslim society, Muslims are categorized into three factions:

1-Self haters
2-Extremists
3-True believers

When you yourself look into it, you come up with three factions. Another person looking will conclude something differently and so on. The thing is, to the person who is inventing these labels, they themself will always be the "true believer" category.

For example if I were to ask another muslim, you'd fall into the category "rejector of hadith and therefore not related to islam but more quranism" and they'd be "true believer" (just an example).

In 15 Islamic states they kill gays and they're not even extremists but just regular Muslims obedient to Koran.





And yet some bozo on the net is still convinced Koran is all about 'love and tolerance'. Talk about charging against the windmills.

Allah need to send an angel to Earth to give us a Tafsir from Allah. That way all disagreement about the Quran will end. Allah should explain what the Iyah of the Quran mean and a lot of problems will be solved. e.g. Sunni VS Shia.

(July 8, 2018 at 8:22 am)ReptilianPeon Wrote: Allah need to send an angel to Earth to give us a Tafsir from Allah. That way all disagreement about the Quran will end. Allah should explain what the Iyah of the Quran mean and a lot of problems will be solved. e.g. Sunni VS Shia.

The Quran of Ali had the following:

Commentary from God and Gabriel.

Commentary from the Prophet.

The order of which verses were revealed.


The first two rulers not only didn't take the offer when he offered them that book to spread to all Muslims, they forbid people to write hadiths, and not only that, but burned hadiths all in supposedly in spirit of preserving Quran almost as if God didn't promise to preserve it.

(July 7, 2018 at 8:43 pm)Khemikal Wrote:

(July 7, 2018 at 7:24 pm)ReptilianPeon Wrote: But if they are true believers then they must not be extremists necessarily? Are you suggesting that violence is normal? If so, then wouldn't the extremists be the peaceful ones, like Atlas actually. I'm a bit confused.

The people are confusing, the phenomenon isn;t.  Extremists live at the fringe of [whatever they think magic book is saying to them.  

-but yeah..violence is normal for human beings, in many ways, many forms.  Never make the mistake of thinking that you have a "peaceful" true believer...... of -anything-....... on your hands.  You just haven;t crossed their lines yet, or they haven;t.

You can see his trapdoor already.  "Deter aggression".  We here in the land of the great satan call that a preemptive strike.  A longer view of history and human behavior calls it pretext.

Muslims are normal people. And global Jihad was mainly invented after the disgusting foreign policy of the USA.

(July 7, 2018 at 11:44 am)AtlasS33 Wrote: If you ever took a close look to the Muslim society, Muslims are categorized into three factions:

1-Self haters
2-Extremists
3-True believers

It is not strange for one category to carry small bits of the other categories; either. So you can see a true believer who carries some self hate or some extremism, and vice versa for every category.

In this topic I want to discuss the "extremists" in specific.

Mostly, this category feels alienated and out of society, its members also feel that everybody in the world is fighting them, anger can be seen shining from their propaganda, and vengeance is one of the main goals of their struggle. Desperation also serves their struggle and is the engine behind their signature act: suicide bombing.

The problem with this category of Muslims is the direct ignoring they do in front of direct verses from the Quran they believe in:

Quote:https://quran.com/7/56?translations=
Sura 7, The Quran:

Sahih International

(56) And cause not corruption upon the earth after its reformation. And invoke Him in fear and aspiration. Indeed, the mercy of Allah is near to the doers of good.

and:

Quote:https://quran.com/5/32?translations=86,29
Surah 5, the Quran:

Sahih International

(32) Because of that, We decreed upon the Children of Israel that whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one - it is as if he had saved mankind entirely. And our messengers had certainly come to them with clear proofs. Then indeed many of them, [even] after that, throughout the land, were transgressors.

But these verses are totally ignored by the extremist mind. Souls are being killed without a soul -the children dying in suicide bombings and the civilians-, corruption takes place with the rash acts of extremists.

But all of that opposing opinion from the same religion extremists say they believe in, does not hold any of them from pressing the trigger, bombing hundreds to oblivion.

Terrorism of extremist Muslim militias, is not at all different in evil than the tactical bombing and savage nuclear threat of non-Muslim superpowers. Actually; it's a very sad thing that a Muslim justifies the crimes they make by the evil done by other regimes and systems, it only differs in scale.

But the question asked for the supporters of Jihadi movements: don't you feel shame of going against obvious, clear verses from your own religion, like the ones above?

Do children and suicide bombing casualties know in what they were killed or because of what?

Basing your morality on the writings of antiquity  makes no sense to me. And the part religious people miss, not just Islam, but all religions worldwide, is that just because you interpret a writing one way, does not prevent someone else to read that same book to come to a completely different conclusion.

You are still pulling the "True Scotsman" fallacy, just like any other religion.

Our species ability to be cruel or compassionate isn't handed down to us from above, our behaviors both good and bad are in us. It is up to humans to choose which.

Getting your directions and morality from a book/authority is just flawed whatever way you look at it, in my opinion.

If you just do whatever you're told regardless, you're amoral at best, and prepared to carry out acts you consider horrible at worst.

If you would only do what you'd do anyway, or stop following it if it disagrees with you too much, then you're just projecting your own morality onto the book. You might as well not bother.

(July 8, 2018 at 9:54 am)AtlasS33 Wrote:

(July 7, 2018 at 8:43 pm)Khemikal Wrote: The people are confusing, the phenomenon isn;t.  Extremists live at the fringe of [whatever they think magic book is saying to them.  

-but yeah..violence is normal for human beings, in many ways, many forms.  Never make the mistake of thinking that you have a "peaceful" true believer...... of -anything-....... on your hands.  You just haven;t crossed their lines yet, or they haven;t.

You can see his trapdoor already.  "Deter aggression".  We here in the land of the great satan call that a preemptive strike.  A longer view of history and human behavior calls it pretext.

Muslims are normal people. And global Jihad was mainly invented after the disgusting foreign policy of the USA.

I;m fairly certain that the great satan wouldn;t exist for another 1k years when the first global jihad went down.....but you do you. I keep reminding you that we;ve been constant friends to muslims (especially extremists, lol!)..since our inception. Unless, ofc, the disgusting foreign policy you;re talking about amounts to "teh joos are coming teh joos are coming!". Don;t know what to tell you on that count, we have alot of friends. We can;t spend all of our time blowing you to the exclusion of all others.

Obvs muslims are normal people, though, lol. Which is why the notion of a peaceful true believer winds up being a common contradiction of terms. It doesn;t matter whether it;s a religion or a political ideology....or a political ideology that just so happens to be a religion...or a simple hatred of some demonized Other™.

---

(July 8, 2018 at 12:18 pm)robvalue Wrote: Getting your directions and morality from a book/authority is just flawed whatever way you look at it, in my opinion.

If you just do whatever you're told regardless, you're amoral at best, and prepared to carry out acts you consider horrible at worst.

If you would only do what you'd do anyway, or stop following it if it disagrees with you too much, then you're just projecting your own morality onto the book. You might as well not bother.

If a person gets their morality from a magic book they have no moral agency.

If a person projects their moral agency onto a magic book they;ve lent the magic book their morality.

Magic books are useless at best, disastrous at worst.

(July 8, 2018 at 8:49 am)MysticKnight Wrote:

(July 8, 2018 at 8:22 am)ReptilianPeon Wrote: Allah need to send an angel to Earth to give us a Tafsir from Allah. That way all disagreement about the Quran will end. Allah should explain what the Iyah of the Quran mean and a lot of problems will be solved. e.g. Sunni VS Shia.

The Quran of Ali had the following:

Commentary from God and Gabriel.

Commentary from the Prophet.

The order of which verses were revealed.


The first two rulers not only didn't take the offer when he offered them that book to spread to all Muslims, they forbid people to write hadiths, and not only that, but burned hadiths all in supposedly in spirit of preserving Quran almost as if God didn't promise to preserve it.

Ali had a different Quran to everyone else? I am reading that correctly? If Ali's Quran was different (and better, as you appear to claim) does that mean we are using the wrong Qurans today? I am very confused.