(July 13, 2018 at 2:42 pm)SteveII Wrote:

(July 13, 2018 at 2:36 pm)Joods Wrote: No. You're just intolerant to anyone who isn't a White, Anglo Saxon evangelical Christian, such as yourself.

That's asinine...yet not altogether unexpected from a certain section of AF. Congrats on the civil discourse merit badge.

Just calling it like I see it.

(July 13, 2018 at 11:46 am)SteveII Wrote: The logic is perfect.

Garbage in, garbage out.

(July 13, 2018 at 4:09 pm)polymath257 Wrote:

(July 13, 2018 at 3:56 pm)SteveII Wrote: IMO, Christian belief on homosexuality has nothing to do with deriving some moral reasoning from "gay" factors/consequences/outcomes. I think it is a category error to think so. Instead, it is based on Divine Command Theory: God commanded it and that is a sufficient source of moral obligation. There is nothing left to argue about. Attempting to develop some sort of Christian natural moral argument is unnecessary and unconvincing at best. Atheists that demand an argument and in the absence of one shout "bigot" don't understand this.

Well, the point is that the Divine Command Theory of morality is useless and, frankly, immoral.

So, your position is that if there is a God that created the universe, who is responsible for every concept that ever was and every person that ever lived, he is immoral--because your morality derived from your subjective experience and opinions during a timeframe that would not even appear as a blip in just the history of the universe says so. Color me surprised.

Quote:That is a mis-characterization and I think you know it (feeling that something is "icky").   And I've been down this road before the presence or absence of objective harm, doesn't make something moral or immoral. It doesn't account for objective morality. Or say why it is wrong (only that it causes harm)    If you would like to make a thread, we can discuss why you think it does and I think that it does not.

Nope t's the sum totality of your bigotry and yes wqe have debated this and you lost over and over and over .

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Quote:So, your position is that if there is a God that created the universe, who is responsible for every concept that ever was and every person that ever lived, he is immoral--because your morality derived from your subjective experience and opinions during a timeframe that would not even appear as a blip in just the history of the universe says so. Color me surprised.

This comment is absurd and no divine command theory is nonsense even if god created everything and is eternal none of that equal moral .

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Quote:That's asinine...yet not altogether unexpected from a certain section of AF. Congrats on the civil discourse merit badge.

Nope ideological bigotry exists so your wrong . And yes Christianity is bigoted against gays .

Quote:I don't think that you rationalize to morality.   You may have to rationalize from moral principles for something which is a little different.  But I don't think that you get to those principles through logic.  How do you rationalize that it is wrong to kill others.   At best you may take a pragmatic approach, but a pragmatic approach, but being pragmatical doesn't necessarily make it moral or immoral.  Otherwise your not saying that it is right or wrong, but efficient.  As well, the question doesn't even make sense in a subjective view of morality.

You don't understand morality ad have already been schooled on it .

(July 13, 2018 at 11:17 am)SteveII Wrote: There should at least be an attempt to correctly characterize the other side's position in a civil discussion.

1. Marriage was ordained between a man and a woman from the beginning--with no ambiguity.
2. Sexual immorality is sex outside of marriage.
3. Sexual immorality is a sin.
4. Homosexual activity is outside of marriage (from 1)
5. Homosexual activity is a sin (from 2 and 3). 

Then again, there are very few that want to have a discussion...and even less at AF.

The same biblical stance was made in reference to owning slaves, preventing interracial marriage, and the fight against women being able to vote. Just because something is understood to be accepted and done a certain way from the beginning should not be the reason for common sense morality and equal rights due to the fact that some primitive laws were ordained for the past when it is quite obvious certain primitive laws should be updated for changing times.

(July 13, 2018 at 5:09 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote:

(July 13, 2018 at 11:46 am)SteveII Wrote: The logic is perfect.

Garbage in, garbage out.

Yet, it is reasoned and therefore insulates against the charge of "bigot". A person may still be a bigot, but it is not entailed from the belief itself.

(July 13, 2018 at 11:41 am)SteveII Wrote: That is your opinion. Christians believe it was ordained by God. I couldn't care less if you agree--just wanted to clarify the near constant mischaracterization of the belief.

Yours is an opinion as well. Having an opinion is all good and fine, until you decide that it is your duty to allow your opinion to unreasonably alter the lives of others through outdated biblical law. There is absolutely nothing wrong with equal opportunity rights for all, except that some invisible being that cannot be proven to exist simply doesn't like certain things a certain natural way.

(July 13, 2018 at 5:46 pm)SteveII Wrote:

(July 13, 2018 at 5:09 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: Garbage in, garbage out.

Yet, it is reasoned and therefore insulates against the charge of "bigot". A person may still be a bigot, but it is not entailed from the belief itself.

Your problem is you base your life on an old book of mythology written in the authoritarian age of kings. None of the morality of antiquity reflects our modern west.

Quote:Yet, it is reasoned and therefore insulates against the charge of "bigot".

Nope it insane and wrong 

Quote: A person may still be a bigot, but it is not entailed from the belief itself.

But in this case you are a bigot and it is because of a belief system .You are a ideological bigot for trying to justify your bigotry through an ideological lens .

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(July 13, 2018 at 5:52 pm)Brian37 Wrote:

(July 13, 2018 at 5:46 pm)SteveII Wrote: Yet, it is reasoned and therefore insulates against the charge of "bigot". A person may still be a bigot, but it is not entailed from the belief itself.

Your problem is you base your life on an old book of mythology written in the authoritarian age of kings. None of the morality of antiquity reflects our modern west.

Indeed the KKK opposing interracial marriage is ideological bigotry

Muslims throwing gay people off buildings is ideological bigotry 

In Africa Christians treating animists as second class citizens by a weird interpretation of the bible is ideological bigotry

The Mormons saying  a black man can only get into heaven as a slave is ideological bigotry 

And lastly using the bible to condemn gays and deny there relationships equality IS ideological bigotry 

Doctrines can be as bigoted as people and if god were real then he's a bigot and immortality and creation do not goodness make.

(July 13, 2018 at 5:52 pm)Tizheruk Wrote:

Quote:Yet, it is reasoned and therefore insulates against the charge of "bigot".

Nope it insane and wrong 

Quote: A person may still be a bigot, but it is not entailed from the belief itself.

But in this case you are a bigot and it is because of a belief system .You are a ideological bigot for trying to justify your bigotry through an ideological lens .

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(July 13, 2018 at 5:52 pm)Brian37 Wrote: Your problem is you base your life on an old book of mythology written in the authoritarian age of kings. None of the morality of antiquity reflects our modern west.

Indeed the KKK opposing interracial marriage is ideological bigotry

Muslims throwing gay people off buildings is ideological bigotry 

In Africa Christians treating animists as second class citizens by a weird interpretation of the bible is ideological bigotry

The Mormons saying  a black man can only get into heaven as a slave is ideological bigotry 

And lastly using the bible to condemn gays and deny there relationships equality IS ideological bigotry 

Doctrines can be as bigoted as people and if god were real then he's a bigot and immortality and creation do not goodness  make.

I like to be fair in this. This isn't just about Christianity, but worldwide in antiquity. Ruling families ruled worldwide back then, so it isn't just Christianity, but even Buddhism and Hinduism, not just the 3 religions of Abraham.

Even the ancient Greeks and Romans, we falsely call them the seat of modern democracy, but that would be false. Even they had ruling families and slaves. And while they had senates, they still really had no western veto power or impeachment power or "no confidence vote". The only thing that could be argued about the Ancient Greeks and Romans would have to be a case by case individual king, which is what a Caesar is, some could be argued depending on name, to be more tolerant or less tolerant. 

Humans worldwide back then falsely assumed that a tribe/nation's success was from the hand of a god or gods or ancestor worship.

"Divine right" was the global belief in every religion, that your ruling and or success was coming from a super natural place.