(October 18, 2018 at 4:30 pm)Drich Wrote:

(October 18, 2018 at 3:47 pm)Joods Wrote: Then the bible should just indicate that and not leave it up to 20,000 different interpretations for people to figure out.

but what if all 20,000 version were right for those 20000 groups of people?

But that contradicts what other theists here have said about how the bible is to be interpreted. And this is part of the problem. It's either the inerrant word of god, to be interpreted as is, or it isn't. So 20,000 interpretations can't all be right.

Quote: what if it is about doing your best and each best will be a little less than some but greater than other enough so it takes 20000 groups to encapsulate the different levels of 'best' before God?

I don't think that is how god wanted people to understand his specific instructions. And according to the bible, they were pretty specific.

Quote:Here something to think about what if... God's offer goes beyond those who call them selves christian?

I don't think we qualify for god's offer. What about the parts of the bible that says gentiles are not promised the afterlife?

Quote:What if for some crazy reason we do not get to decide who is and who is not christian that our ceremonies and rituals mean nothing to God and God judges us on what he knows to be the absolute truth of who we are? What if salvation is not something we obtain but something given? you know kinda like the bible says??

It would mean for some the bar gets raised by alot and for others it get lowered to the point that almost any idiot can get in?

And what if all of that was imagined because a bunch of men sat around a fire and told some really creative stories?
What if you get to the end of your life, only to find that the god you believed in and was faithful to, didn't exist?
What if you spent your whole life wasting away for some afterlife that never happens?

(October 18, 2018 at 11:46 am)Nay_Sayer Wrote: It's not a sin to petition FSM, it's just FSM is not in the habit of filling petitions if you can't or won't also pray. It's a whole process Described by Cheesus in the parable of the wise and foolish baker.

RAmen.

How do we know that Cheesus is the True Messiah?

(October 18, 2018 at 2:40 pm)Drich Wrote:

(October 11, 2018 at 4:20 pm)Bucky Ball Wrote: Oh really ... like this Drich idiot know about god.

John 14: 14
You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.
ANYTHING. He said ANYTHING. He lied out his ass.

"In my name," doofus... what does that mean? It means ask for anything I would ask for or rather anything Jesus Himself would ask for... So then ask yourself what did Jesus ask for? answer? is in the "Lords prayer"/Luke 11, that is what he told his disciples when he was asked by them how to pray.

It's is like ordering a pizza for someone you can not ask for stuff on the pizza the person your order for doesn't want, nor can you rer something he did not want you to have.. You can but it then the order ceases to be his, and becomes yours. (which is up to you to make happen.. However, If you want Jesus to answer your prayer then pray as he taught us to pray, and ask for what he wants us to have!! if you want jesus to just ignore you then ask God for whatever you want.

Then further in luke 11 jesus promises to deliver the Holy Spirit when asked. So you have a whole chapter of Christ himself telling you how to ask and what to ask for in is name... How stupid are you to assume you can use his name like a credit card and get whatever you want, when clearly contextually there is a very specific way to ask and a very specific thing to ask for!!

Now when you receive the holy Spirit God can do whatever it take to cast any mountain of doubt you may have into the ocean.

What a load of horseshit. I said IN MY NAME. Ah yes. His hermeneutic of insult. He has thousands of converts, right ? LMAO.
He did NOT say ask for anything I would ask for. Asking "in his name" does not mean asking for what he wants.

Quote:However, If you want Jesus to answer your prayer then pray as he taught us to pray, and ask for what he wants us to have!! if you want jesus to just ignore you then ask God for whatever you want.

You can shove your sermon up your ass. *As if* you actually know anything about a "jesus" (you can't even capitalize). LOL. Pompous ass.

Now he turns it into a Jebus bait and switch.
These Fundy idiots can contort anything to make it appear to come out the way they want it to. 
Praying for your child to recover from cancer is NOT like "ordering pizza". What an oblivious jerk.
Can't your Jebus send in the "A" team, Drich, and let the junior varsity (you) go home ?

(October 18, 2018 at 6:52 pm)Dr H Wrote:

(October 18, 2018 at 11:46 am)Nay_Sayer Wrote: It's not a sin to petition FSM, it's just FSM is not in the habit of filling petitions if you can't or won't also pray. It's a whole process Described by Cheesus in the parable of the wise and foolish baker.

RAmen.

How do we know that Cheesus is the True Messiah?

Easy, My book says he is.

(October 18, 2018 at 4:50 pm)RobbyPants Wrote:

(October 18, 2018 at 4:30 pm)Drich Wrote: What are you having problems with? I have given you Paul, The father of the gentile church our church... He said there is only 2 ways to to go before God... The way Jesus prayed/formal prayer and petitions or supplications in some translation. Why can't you not accept this truth? why are you looking for loop holes?? If you belong to the church then you would be subject to the teaching of Paul. Subsequently when Paul says there are only two forms of speaking to God, prayer and supplication then that is it.. why are you looking for answers where you know the bible is silent? why not use what the bible does say? do you think God is obligated to 'fund' you just because you think you found a loop hole using broken logic? No. Jesus was directly asked How do we pray. He gave only one example. No other examples were given. However Paul when telling his church how to go before God He mentions not only Christ's prayer but... also granted us permission to also petition God. Meaning prayer is what Jesus taught, everything else we ask for is supplication.

Yeah, I read Phl 4:6. I read the surrounding passages, and I have no idea where you're getting the idea that Paul was telling people the only two ways to pray.

This kinda gets right back to what I said about interpretations. There's nothing in there explicitly limiting the types of prayer. So, maybe this is less of an issue of you not getting set theory, and more of an issue of you thinking you can infer implied meanings into the Bible.

Again as in my first post.... The two words paul used in the koine greek define prayer as to what it is and what supplication or petitioning is. The directive you seek may not be found in your english understanding of the translative word but in the nature of the greek the word prayer is that of a formal prayer offer to God. to this point in the whole of scripture there is only one example of such a prayer and that is the one Jesus taught in luke 11.

again prayer as Jesus taught follows the out line of acknowledging God honoring his deity and what he has done, we then pray for acceptance of his will in our life and in the world we can ask for our daily NEED and we ask for forgiveness based on our ability to forgive. then we can lose the prayer any way we like we can use any words we like but we must approach God with respect, ask him to help us accept and follow his will (not ours which is the only real difference between petition and prayer) then ask and remind our selves that our salvation depends on our willingness to forgive others.

All other prayer... is petition.

Maybe that is what you do not understand.

Petition is a form of prayer but not the one and only formal prayer Jesus taught which is what sets petition apart from prayer.

Here's the thing because there are no other examples of formal prayer in the bible when formal prayer is referenced it points back to the one prayer Jesus taught us to pray.

Now that I answered your question answer the questions I asked you as to why this is so important to you.

(October 18, 2018 at 6:34 pm)Joods Wrote: But that contradicts what other theists here have said about how the bible is to be interpreted.

again that is why Paul likened different members of the church as different members of the body. for instance if you see a gunshot with your eye and only could see what happened and you described it, it would be totally different than is you could only witness the same gun shot with your ears.. Your ears might tell you of birds singing in the back ground, children playing and carrying on a car zooms by screeching brakes some yelling and profanity and BOOM BOOM BOOM then ears ringing.. while if you could only see you might not notice the birds or the kids but see a old junkie car zooming by while some guy in a red shirt and shorts tries to cross the street not at the cross walk but by the hot dog cart with the yellow umbrella, then the old junkie car stops barely missing the guy in the red shirt and shorts. then the driver an old man pulls out a gun then you close your eyes to what happens next..

Which one better describes the event? In truth it depends if you are an eye or an ear.. because to the ear things like color and old or new have no real meaning. and to the eye the sound of a bird singing or children out of sight playing has no meaning, even how loud the gun was is almost pointless to an eye..

So which one is correct? on the surface they seem to be describing different things because to each the focal points are different. one notices and makes important things that they understand, while others skip over those points all together. Why because we are designed differently with different strengths and weaknesses to one who can sing worship and praise in their service and how they understand God would be through song, the arts, elaborate worship and praise.. to a builder worship and praise may come through elaborate buildings or tricked out sanctuaries, to the academic worship and praise may mean long boring lectures and endless debate. This also means we will focous on different points of the law. or not at all and we grow past the law and learn what it is all about and that is love/Agape'.

So which one of us is right? none on our merits but all because again the same grace made available to us by christ on the cross is made available to us when we worship and try and love God with all being and fall short. which again we all fall short.

Quote:And this is part of the problem. It's either the inerrant word of god, to be interpreted as is, or it isn't. So 20,000 interpretations can't all be right.

I did this seperate so I could repeat. We are not right not one of us, not 100%. So that means the grace extended to us when we willfully sin, is also extended when we wantingly worship and love. The idea here is to use all that you are to come to a place where you are at 100% centered on Christ because even if your 100% is only 20% "right" Christ will make up the rest. nly followers of Christ have this offer extended to them anyone else who preaches a different Gospel where Christ is not at the center of the religion or christ is just a prophet or something along those line by their own belief he does not have the power to make up our shortcomings in sin or in worship.

Think about it why would God forgive our sins murder rape killing babies, if he hangs us on not singing the right songs or using musical instruments or worshiping on the wrong day? What monster would allow a rapist live for eternity just because he worships on a saturday with no musical instruments in their church when little betty sue who 's biggest sin is wanting to love God more but rocks out with a full metal band on sunday? No. Jesus says Love covers a multitude of sin. meaning even if you consider worshiping with a metal band on sunday a sin (Even if there is no command against it) the act of love that is in the worship covers your 'misdeed.' However there are limits and God is no fool. You can not willfully sin and claim it is worship. you can not hate people and claim you are worshiping God as it does indeed break on of only two real commandment the NT church has been given.

Quote:I don't think that is how god wanted people to understand his specific instructions. And according to the bible, they were pretty specific.

Here's the thing... What specific instructions??? Jesus was directly ask what laws are we to obey? he said all the laws of the OT can be boilded down to just two laws... 1 Love your lord God with all of your heart mind Spirit and strength (basically with all of your being/ablity to love) 2 Love your neighbor as your self, if you keep these two commands you will full fill all the law. Meaning for Christians these two laws are it. Everything else is freedom...

So when I say we are different members of the same body we if we are like an eye then we worship the the fullest ability an eye can worship. Which is polar opposite than how the Jews where instructed. The jews were given books of law that governed every little aspect of life. We have no such books. only two commands given by Christ Himself. Which amouts to love God the best way you know how, and treat others how you want to be treated. meaning if you want God to forgive you, you forgive others. if you want God to bless you you bless others..ect. that is it. however.. Paul in depth over the course of several of his works/books point out that 'we' if we need the law can live by the law even though we have been freed from the law.

meaning if you think loving God, demands you live like an OT jew then that is what you must lie by till you in your heart know better! And for those of us who are free from the law, we are not to allow our freedom to corrupt those under the law. meaning if you think it is wrong to drink beer or wine then me being free who knows it is ok.. should not drink beer or wine in front of you. lest you feel pressure to drink and while it is not a sin you in your heart thinks it is, which means for you it is a sin. So for your sake I should not drink.

Quote:I don't think we qualify for god's offer. What about the parts of the bible that says gentiles are not promised the afterlife?

1, I don't know any parts of the bible that say gentiles were not promised the after life. Only that God choosen would reign.. meaning (in hosea 2) the whole of the human race would qualify for after life through the Jews. (IE Christ) and that originally the jews where slated to be chosen to be the ruling class. But since the (remaining jews) jews deny christ the invitation was opened to everyone else.
[/quote]

Quote:And what if all of that was imagined because a bunch of men sat around a fire and told some really creative stories?

I wish I could give you the experiences I had.. Too much or too many times have I lived a event to only come back and find it described in scripture. Meaning before I knew anything of salvation heaven or hell as the bible descries it I lived judgement and the decent into hell. (in a dream) but years later in study found out everything I dreamed was described scripturally. Just one spiritual experience after the other only to be backed up by the bible. to now where you all will ask questions and I take them to God I am given answers first... then google the book chapter and verse. or supporting documentations. rarly what I have been given needs to be changed and if it does it is often supplement info but the core always seems to be good.

Quote:What if you get to the end of your life, only to find that the god you believed in and was faithful to, didn't exist?  
What if you spent your whole life wasting away for some afterlife that never happens?

Honestly i was slated to be a drug user or at best a ditch digger. Couldn't read or write after graduating high school. Found God FF 25 years and now I run 3 different business in two different cities and deliver product nation wide including the caribbean for other companies and major corporations. All by simply walking through the doors God opens for me. If this is a wasted life to you, then maybe you are better off. That said I am not religious I do not bind myself with ritual and tradition for the sake of it. I am not bound by the OT law I am not bound by the church in any way. How ever i do love God with all that I am I re invest almost 100% of what he gives me and I try to love my neighbor as I know what love to mean/want to be shown love. I forgive everyone I hold no grudges and would do just about anything to help someone I think is in need. On the down side I eat too much sleep too much and rather play than work.

I honestly could not want more out of life. I am happy and content, don't want a nicer or newer house don't want a new car (own a car lot so I get to drive basically whatever i want) which is either a 1979 ford pick up or a 1967 mustang I has since i was 15. Don't get me wrong i like driving my wife's bmw or mercedes (or whatever she chooses to drive) from time to time, but over all I love my old truck and car.. I'm happy in life and content. God is a big part of that. I simply want to share this because I know the misery of being a single soul no bigger than what others think of me.

Well I'm glad that's worked out for you.
You can give credit to your god, however, I'm more inclined to attribute all that you have to your own hard work and not as a result of anything an unseeable friend could offer.
That's just me. All throughout my life, even as a child, I never felt that god was a presence in my life. I would ask questions regarding his reality or ask to see some physical presence and was told that I just have to have faith and believe.
I grew out of the imaginary friend stage when I was six. But even into adulthood I was still willing to give god a chance. Different churches all led me back to the same conclusion: there is no true evidence that god exists. Personal stories and experiences are not proof. Not to me and not to countless others who feel the same way.

Quote:Here's the thing... What specific instructions??? Jesus was directly ask* what laws are we to obey? he said all the laws of the OT can be boilded* down to just two laws... 1 Love your lord God with all of your heart mind Spirit and strength (basically with all of your being/ablity* to love) 2 Love your neighbor as your self, if you keep these two commands you will full fill all the law. Meaning for Christians these two laws are it. Everything else is freedom...

Oops : "For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."

"For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

Heaven (LOL) and Earth are still here, and everything is NOT "accomplished", therefore EVERYTHING in the "law" is still required.
As usual Christians cherry-pick the verses they want to cherry-pick.

PAUL himself said Christians were STILL under the (old) law.
1 Corinthians 14:34  "Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says."

Jesus also told the young man in Matthew, he had to "keep (all) the commandments", (not just 2). Sounds like your Jebus can't make up his mind, (or perhaps the people who made up the story of Jebus couldn't keep their story straight).

Drich, you really need to take Bible 101. You are incompetent to say anything about the Bible.
You can't even write a sentence in correct English. Can't Jebus send someone who can spell ?
* asked
* boiled
* ability

(October 19, 2018 at 10:54 am)Drich Wrote: Again as in my first post.... The two words paul used in the koine greek define prayer as to what it is and what supplication or petitioning is. The directive you seek may not be found in your english understanding of the translative word but in the nature of the greek the word prayer is that of a formal prayer offer to God. to this point in the whole of scripture there is only one example of such a prayer and that is the one Jesus taught in luke 11.

So, the reason most Christians are praying wrong is because they don't speak ancient Greek, and Almighty God isn't a good enough communicator to get the idea across?

I'm going to be honest: I don't care enough about this topic to learn ancient Greek well enough to see if I agree with your assessment on this. The vast majority of Christians do ask God for stuff when they pray, and that's what my thread is addressing. I don't really care if 90% of Christians are "correct" or not.

So, maybe your claim about me just not knowing the right language is true, and maybe it's not. Sadly, it being true hinges on Almighty God letting this One True translation die along with the ancient Greek speakers, only to be picked up by a rare handful of scholars who know the True meaning.

(October 18, 2018 at 9:20 pm)Nay_Sayer Wrote:

(October 18, 2018 at 6:52 pm)Dr H Wrote: How do we know that Cheesus is the True Messiah?

Easy, My book says he is.

That would be this book?