(September 30, 2011 at 9:33 pm)ElDinero Wrote:

(September 30, 2011 at 7:33 pm)salty Wrote: Homosexuality: Homosexual couples must use instruments or parts of the body that were not created for conception, such as the rectum, in order to have sex. Homosexual couples cannot procreate because their genitals are the same, therefore they will never have their bloodline will end when they die.
Fornication: Sexual encounters outside of marriage cause people to catch diseases if they are not careful, (some are curable and others are not). Fornication creates unplanned pregnancies, which furthers abortion and the use of abortion. People involved in fornication can have problems with commitment and trust in relationships, which makes them feel "trapped", this feeling can cause marriages to fall apart the moment they're established.

1. Heterosexual couples also fuck in the ass.
2. What does procreation have to do with anything? I have had sex easily over five hundred times, not once has my intention been to procreate.
3. Do you think unplanned pregnancies never happen to married couples? And do you think that a marriage is by definition a better environment for a child to be raised in?
4. Prove that there is a link between 'fornication' and commitment/trust issues.
5. Why is abortion wrong?

---

(September 30, 2011 at 9:30 pm)salty Wrote: Sin is measured by morality, an issue of the heart. Biologically a man can have sex with a boy, but what if a man had sex with your son, without his permission? Would you say, "well this is biologically sound, a penis fits into the rectum, have at it!" Or would you want the man locked up?

---

Are you saying you can't tell the difference between two consenting adults making a private decision, and a man raping a boy? Are you serious?

1. Heterosexual couples can also have sex the right way, they do that other way for pleasure, homosexuals don't have a choice because their bodies don't come together like heterosexual bodies, unless they alter themselves surgically.
2. First, it answers for a reason why homosexuality is wrong. Second, if everyone was homosexual the human race would go extinct. Third, people conceive because it brings them joy, homosexual couples can and do adopt, but it's not the same as having children that resemble you and the one you love. Heterosexual couples may have that joy, but homosexual couples can never fully enjoy it because they need a sperm donor or a surrogate. Fourth, you may not have wanted children in the past, but you won't have sex with a man to get them when you do.
3. What does this question have to do with anything? I'm talking about fornication, not marriage. If an unplanned child comes into a marriage its very likely the child will be kept, there is no shame in a marriage when a child is made, only for an unmarried woman there can be shame.

Why would any child be better off with unmarried parents? What kind of example does that give a child? I love your mom enough to have a baby with her which will connect us until we die but not enough to get marry her, which will also connect us until we die. If a couple is married it's a better household because that couple is saying they are committed, if they can be committed to each other then they are probably committed to raising a child to the best of their abilities.

4. I don't have to, because I used that special word, can, which implies it's able to happen, not that it will.

5. Abortion is wrong 1) because a child cannot accept or deny an invitation into this world the sperm and egg work together to make the child grow. 2) it's murder to take a child by the legs and smash its head on a wall, it's also murder to use tools to slice a baby up and drag it out of a woman's uterus.

That last comment just shows you're frustrated. You know that morals play a big role in sexual acts.

---

(September 30, 2011 at 9:33 pm)Rhythm Wrote: The trouble with calling morality a "matter of the heart" is that it is then subjective, isn't it. Let's take your example to the other extreme. If I were to say "My heart tells me having sex with boys is fine" then it would no longer be a sin?

(btw, you're making that homosexuality/pedophilia jump that everyone loves, even if it isn't something that you've done intentionally.)

Thought we were avoiding referencing the bible? "Morality by the Authority of Newborns" followed by "The Lego Theory of Sexual Morality"

I guess in that circumstance, don't get caught because the legal system deems that act to be unlawful. You would have to believe the moral standards of the legal system and the bible are false and that your sense of morality outweighs them, then you're okay, it's not sinful in your mind.

The only cause of shame for unmarried women who have children is people exactly like you.

The laws of our country and the laws of the bible are not in any way equivalent. Give leviticus another read. Matter of fact, whatever happened to leviticus getting tossed? Jesus had nothing to say about homosexuality. So, it's not a matter of the heart after all, but a matter of what a fictional narrative says it is. Even then you decide when you take heed of what it says and when you don't. Thought as much. See what happens when you step out of the text?

I'm not talking about shame in a biblical sense. I'm a woman and if I was pregnant, it was unplanned, I was unmarried, it's kind of embarrassing that my uterus announces that I gave my body with no commitment. These days unmarried pregnancy is normal, people don't look down on people, shame is something personal, you won't feel it if you're not concerned about what happened, but many mothers do. A man wouldn't understand because he doesn't have to carry a symbol of sexual intercourse, called pregnancy, like a woman does.

(October 1, 2011 at 12:00 am)salty Wrote: I'm not talking about shame in a biblical sense. I'm a woman and if I was pregnant, it was unplanned, I was unmarried, it's kind of embarrassing that my uterus announces that I gave my body with no commitment. These days unmarried pregnancy is normal, people don't look down on people, shame is something personal, you won't feel it if you're not concerned about what happened, but many mothers do. A man wouldn't understand because he doesn't have to carry a symbol of sexual intercourse, called pregnancy, like a woman does.

Salty, I am going to try to remain really calm, but it's hard. I have given birth to 4 children. I was married to my best friend from January 20, 2002- August 30 2010, when AIDS stole his life at age 39. We never had sex because he was gay. I had sex with lots of guys though. I have 4 children by 3 men. I am not the least bit ashamed of myself, and why the fuck should I be? The only people who would pass judgement on me are people like you. People who are warped, and because of their archaic, backward religious values, can't seem to understand that fucking is what humans do, and HUMANS are the one's who invented distinctions like marriage.

I work at a women's clinic. I counsel pregnant women all day. I see about 80 women a week. ALL are christians, ALL are unmarried, and almost all of them are seeing me for their pre-abortion mental assessment. Here I am, an atheist and what did I do when I had an unwanted pregnancy? I gave him to some lovely, wealthy, intelligent atheists... of course. I love him very much and it was the hardest thing I have ever done, but I've been keeping track, just for fun. Out of 100 women I have seen. 96 of them claimed Jesus as their lord and savior. 88 of the 96 had abortions, 4 miscarried before they could make up their minds, and 4 chose adoption.

So you see why I don't by your bullshit. You should be ashamed of yourself for judging people whom you know nothing about.

You try to play it off here like you don't, but I see through you. Oops.

(September 30, 2011 at 10:11 pm)salty Wrote: 1. Heterosexual couples can also have sex the right way, they do that other way for pleasure, homosexuals don't have a choice because their bodies don't come together like heterosexual bodies, unless they alter themselves surgically.
2. First, it answers for a reason why homosexuality is wrong. Second, if everyone was homosexual the human race would go extinct. Third, people conceive because it brings them joy, homosexual couples can and do adopt, but it's not the same as having children that resemble you and the one you love. Heterosexual couples may have that joy, but homosexual couples can never fully enjoy it because they need a sperm donor or a surrogate. Fourth, you may not have wanted children in the past, but you won't have sex with a man to get them when you do.
3. What does this question have to do with anything? I'm talking about fornication, not marriage. If an unplanned child comes into a marriage its very likely the child will be kept, there is no shame in a marriage when a child is made, only for an unmarried woman there can be shame.

Why would any child be better off with unmarried parents? What kind of example does that give a child? I love your mom enough to have a baby with her which will connect us until we die but not enough to get marry her, which will also connect us until we die. If a couple is married it's a better household because that couple is saying they are committed, if they can be committed to each other then they are probably committed to raising a child to the best of their abilities.

4. I don't have to, because I used that special word, can, which implies it's able to happen, not that it will.

5. Abortion is wrong 1) because a child cannot accept or deny an invitation into this world the sperm and egg work together to make the child grow. 2) it's murder to take a child by the legs and smash its head on a wall, it's also murder to use tools to slice a baby up and drag it out of a woman's uterus.

That last comment just shows you're frustrated. You know that morals play a big role in sexual acts.

Rhythm has already pointed this out, but your views are absolutely not secular. The fact that you can't see that all of this comes from your book is sad. So let's go through again.

1. So if people alter themselves surgically, would that be ok in your eyes? Would that make them exempt from your rules?

2. I find it fairly offensive that you would say that homosexual couples cannot fully enjoy raising a child because they require a surrogate. How dare you even say something like that? What about a heterosexual couple in which one or both of the parents have misfiring junk and so they cannot conceive naturally - would you tell them that they can't possibly enjoy or appreciate fully the raising of a child because it needed somebody else's sperm/uterus? Do you think these matters have any bearing on how much the parents love the child, or their ability to raise them? If the entire population became homosexual, then the way we view parenting etc would just shift. There would be an understanding of the need to continue the species, so more sperm donors and surrogates would be required. We've already established that there are enough homosexual couples with the desire to raise children. We would not go extinct at all, and it's stupid to suggest we would. I think what you're missing is that you think homosexuality is just about sex. Homosexual couples love each other, every bit as much as heterosexual couples do.

3. The point I was making was that you said 'fornication creates unplanned pregnancies', when they can happen just as easily in committed relationships and marriages. I can think of several reasons why it might be better for a child not to be raised in a marriage. Some married couples stay together solely because they have a kid, do you really think that's healthy for the parents or the child? A lot of marriages are miserable for one or both parties. The only reason there's stigma about this is because of people with twisted views on the subject like you, who think people should be ashamed for doing things that come as naturally to them as breathing. I think you're the one that should be ashamed.

4. Then why make the point at all? It's like saying 'marriage can lead to the husband decapitating the wife and burying her remains under the patio', then refusing to elaborate on it but still using the point to prop up the argument that marriage is bad. By making the statement you are implying there is a link between the two.

5. I don't want to turn this into an abortion thread because it's a real hot potato with lots of convincing arguments either side. Truth be told I haven't fully made my mind up on it, but it's certainly not as cut and dry as you're making it out to be.

As for that addendum, I certainly am frustrated that views like this are retarding societal progress. But more specifically, you did a really stupid thing by equating two scenarios that are not equal. Obviously our support of homosexual sex is not JUST that 'it fits'. Firstly, my understanding is that many homosexual couples don't even have penetrative sex, but anyway it's more to do with the fact that it's a private decision that has nothing to do with anyone else and involves consenting adults. By equating it to paedophilia, you've moved the goalposts in a really annoying and poorly thought out way that carries with it the implication that homosexuality is the same.

Everyone,
I think all of you interpreted the sentence I wrote about a woman feeling shame in a different way than I intended. This has to be a misunderstanding.

I did not mean: a woman who is unmarried and pregnant can feel shame (because I want to cast it on her through judgment).

I mean: a woman who is unmarried and pregnant can (has the ability to, but in some cases may not) feel shame.

Sorry for being unclear. (No wonder you were all jumping on me.)

Aleia, my sister had a child when she was 15 and I was 13. I was proud of her for not aborting the baby because some people were telling her to do it, Christians among them. I'm so glad she didn't, I can't imagine my life without my nephew. I definitely said things in my ignorance that were unkind, I was selfish, but I took care of her son until I went to college, that's about 6 years. So please, don't say to me that I'm the kind of person that would judge someone involved in fornication and unplanned pregnancy. Never again speak of me as if you know anything about me, but I will tell you this; I was involved in fornication before I married my husband. I would be the last person to judge someone who fornicates, because I did it in secret. I have no problem admitting it because if I let people think for one minute I don't remember my own past, I'm just deceiving myself. I know the old me and I'm so happy to be done with that.

Please...unless I address you, stop projecting every word I say onto yourself. When people on this forum say my beliefs are wrong I don't apply it to myself. I just think "well that's how they feel about it" I know that many atheists mostly don't like religious anything and in some cases me too, but usually the former. It's not my goal to point fingers at anyone, when I speak of these sexual groups I refer to them by their names, fornicators, adulterers, etc, how do I know you're in that category unless you tell me? Please stop deciding everything I say is another way to insult you, just maybe it's to answer a question and it's not about you. Finally, stop thinking you're the only one with a worthy story, everyone has a story and every story is worthy and should be respected, because everyone has been through something difficult, for some it's big and for others it's small, but every story has shaped a person, therefore it's important.

Thank you for sharing your story, aleia. I'm sorry for your loss, it was more recent than I could have imagined.

Good night.

But you are judging those groups of people! The whole point of this was that you were explaining why they were wrong! So for me, a serial 'fornicator', you are telling me that what I do is wrong, ergo you are by proxy judging me. Why wouldn't a homosexual be offended when you're saying that homosexuals cannot fully enjoy raising a child because it has genetic input from someone else?

I'm sure it's not bad when a straight couple who simply can't have babies adopt. Why is the feeling different for gays?

El Dinero.

1. Surgery does not truly change your gender it allows you to either receive a penis or enter a vagina if that is your sexual intention, it also allows a person to be involved socially in the gender they want to join, but a man that becomes a woman will not have a uterus and cannot make eggs or become pregnant. A woman that becomes a man cannot create sperm, does not have a prostate and will never grow an Adams Apple.
2. I am addressing why it is wrong to practice homosexuality, did I once say that homosexual couples don't love each other? The best boss I have ever has was gay and he and his partner have been together for 15 years. Don't get on my case about whether or not two human beings can love each other. When you ask what's wrong with homosexuality, meaning it is not right, meaning it's not functioning, I gave an answer, stop trying to make me sound like I don't care about individual people. There are people in this world that want children of their own flesh, their own blood. I am expressing that a child cannot be built on two sperm nor two eggs, so I am logically putting forward that homosexual couples cannot have their own children from their own two bodies because they are the same gender. You're right about the extinction part, people would definitely step up. About raising children, there are tons of adopted children that are loved and treasured, but there are some people that want their own kids, it's that simple. I know of someone right now that is having trouble conceiving and she has more than enough money to adopt, but she wants her own children.
3. Don't call me twisted, it bothers me. I will not be ashamed of having an opinion there are tons of black people and women that died so that I could speak freely. When it comes to marriage realize that every family has the potential to be broken and messed up. The only reason I would argue for a child to be raised in a married family is because the parents felt enough commitment to bind themselves together legally and that's a good example for a child to see what commitment looks like, so they will be eager for it when they grow up. This is not the case every time. I know that. My teacher raised two adopted children as a single mother, never married.
4. Prove there is a link between fornication and trust/commitment issues. A friend of mine had a boyfriend for 5 years and was involved in fornication, her boyfriend was constantly keeping tabs on her because if she slept with him she might find someone else, in reality he mistrusted her because he was cheating. He would constantly pretend to want to marry her, but then claim "he's not ready" later on she finally broke up with him and even though its been...4 years she still thinks that men approaching her are going to treat her like he did. She doesn't trust easily now and feels trapped when she likes someone, because he may not be the right one. This case proves that fornication has the ability to create issues, but as I mentioned it doesn't always do it!
5. Let's be real. It's not cut and dry. And I too am on the fence. I feel that women should have the ability to choose for themselves, but if they asked me, I would ask them to not do it. In the end it's their choice, what I'm saying about abortion is this, if some people didn't involve themselves in fornication then unplanned pregnancies wouldn't be so common, but sex feels good, who wants to avoid it?

In closing. You asked why it is wrong, a reason that answers the question without producing a biblical source is simple: the homosexual lifestyle is different per person, some relationships are based on sex in the beginning, just like many others and some are based on love. People of the same gender loving each other is okay, but to achieve oneness biologically is to have intercourse and homosexuals cannot achieve this, therefore there is something wrong with the act. Look at it logically, I'm speaking of the act, we've already spoken about the other details.

(October 1, 2011 at 5:07 am)salty Wrote: Everyone,
I think all of you interpreted the sentence I wrote about a woman feeling shame in a different way than I intended. This has to be a misunderstanding.

So many misunderstandings from apologists.

Quote:I did not mean: a woman who is unmarried and pregnant can feel shame (because I want to cast it on her through judgment).

The only reason she has to feel shameful is a psychology that comes from being abused by adults as a child who beat her over the head with scripture about a magic man in the sky who sees her natural instincts as a human being (to reproduce for the continuation of her species), as sinful.

You compile that with the judgments and scorn that come from the real people who claim to love her... you get shame.

If she had been raised in a home where there was a dialect about sex as a natural act, what is objectively appropriate/moral regarding sex, and how to protect herself from unwanted pregnancy/diseases, perhaps she wouldn't do things like murder her baby.

When I say appropriate and moral, I mean:

1. Don't rape people. ( Not even one of the ten commandments)
2. Don't have unprotected sex if you don't want a baby or diseases.

As far as when it is appropriate to start having sex, I think that's something that is different for every individual person.

Quote:I mean: a woman who is unmarried and pregnant can (has the ability to, but in some cases may not) feel shame.

Are you an enabler of shame? Undoubtedly certain.

Quote:Sorry for being unclear. (No wonder you were all jumping on me.)

We're still disgusted.

Quote:Aleia, my sister had a child when she was 15 and I was 13. I was proud of her for not aborting the baby because some people were telling her to do it, Christians among them. I'm so glad she didn't, I can't imagine my life without my nephew. I definitely said things in my ignorance that were unkind, I was selfish, but I took care of her son until I went to college, that's about 6 years. So please, don't say to me that I'm the kind of person that would judge someone involved in fornication and unplanned pregnancy.

You're a Christian. Of course you're going to judge fornicators. And of course you no longer fornicate- You're married and saved. Hallelujah.

Quote: Never again speak of me as if you know anything about me, but I will tell you this; I was involved in fornication before I married my husband. I would be the last person to judge someone who fornicates, because I did it in secret. I have no problem admitting it because if I let people think for one minute I don't remember my own past, I'm just deceiving myself. I know the old me and I'm so happy to be done with that.

I know about you what you tell me from your very own words. I can judge and feel no shame because I know it's human nature to judge.. everyone does it. Even Jesus, whether he had the right or not, judged people. Don't claim to be non-judgmental in one breath and then claim to be made in a judge's image. Hypocrisy annoys the shit out of me, and you are so mindlessly hypocritical, it's pathetic.

Quote:Please...unless I address you, stop projecting every word I say onto yourself. When people on this forum say my beliefs are wrong I don't apply it to myself. I just think "well that's how they feel about it" I know that many atheists mostly don't like religious anything and in some cases me too, but usually the former. It's not my goal to point fingers at anyone, when I speak of these sexual groups I refer to them by their names, fornicators, adulterers, etc, how do I know you're in that category unless you tell me? Please stop deciding everything I say is another way to insult you, just maybe it's to answer a question and it's not about you. Finally, stop thinking you're the only one with a worthy story, everyone has a story and every story is worthy and should be respected, because everyone has been through something difficult, for some it's big and for others it's small, but every story has shaped a person, therefore it's important.

Someone who cannot speak from personal experience, and cannot relate what a person is saying to themselves in any way, has no insight and shouldn't say shit.

Unless you address me? I am a member of the forum, just like you. Put some ice on your ego, sweetie. I do not take what you're saying as a personal attack. I take it as an attack upon humanity... something of which we are also both a member. I'd like to hear everyone's story. I hear 20 stories a day and it never gets old. I am aware that everyone has a load of shit on their plates. Where in the fuck do you get that I don't? Then you say that everyone's story has shaped them as if mine has not shaped me, or rather it has shaped me in a way that I don't care about other's story. Fuck you.

Quote:Thank you for sharing your story, aleia. I'm sorry for your loss, it was more recent than I could have imagined.

Good night.

You reek of steaming bullshit, I just want you to know that I know that.

Goodnight.