We don't know...

But we know Beethoven did for sure!

(March 6, 2019 at 10:36 pm)Natachan Wrote: That’s kinda interesting and something I thought might be the answer. But it goes against the theology I was taught. When I studied theology the priest told us that the reason god came down as Jesus was so he could live and die as a man. He referred back to genesis where it talks of god walking with Adam, so god had a body and could walk with man but was not human. So when god came down as Jesus he was a man. He lived as a man, he died as a man.

(Off topic, but this is why it always made sense to me that Jesus was married. After all, if he’s going to live as a man god has to experience life AS a man.)

So while it would make logical (sorta) sense for him not to be human, it wouldn’t necessarily make theological sense. Thus the dying and decomposing question still remains.

 If you ever studied theology you either had a terrible teacher who doesn't know squat about what the scriptures teach or you never listened and put together a story from the small amount that you did hear. The things you have posted above are totally untrue and unfounded according to the scriptures, it's no wonder you haven't found a reason to believe.

GC

I don't believe he decomposed. His flesh died, prior to the resurrection. Typically, the soul (breath) was abandoned “to Sheol,” and the body saw corruption or decayed when someone died.
It's not explicit what happened to his body, other than it wasn't there after 3 days. Maybe it was eaten or decayed faster than 3 days, maybe it was burnt up, or spirited away by angels, no one really knows or cares. He gave his flesh for the life of the world and when he appeared after the resurrection, didn't need that flesh anymore.

(March 7, 2019 at 2:09 am)Godscreated Wrote:

(March 6, 2019 at 10:36 pm)Natachan Wrote: That’s kinda interesting and something I thought might be the answer. But it goes against the theology I was taught. When I studied theology the priest told us that the reason god came down as Jesus was so he could live and die as a man. He referred back to genesis where it talks of god walking with Adam, so god had a body and could walk with man but was not human. So when god came down as Jesus he was a man. He lived as a man, he died as a man.

(Off topic, but this is why it always made sense to me that Jesus was married. After all, if he’s going to live as a man god has to experience life AS a man.)

So while it would make logical (sorta) sense for him not to be human, it wouldn’t necessarily make theological sense. Thus the dying and decomposing question still remains.

 If you ever studied theology you either had a terrible teacher who doesn't know squat about what the scriptures teach or you never listened and put together a story from the small amount that you did hear. The things you have posted above are totally untrue and unfounded according to the scriptures, it's no wonder you haven't found a reason to believe.

GC

It’s wonderful how you assume my reasons for disbelief. So, spoilers, this had nothing to do with my disbelief and actually propped up my belief for a LONG time after it should have faded. And just because YOUR church doesn’t accept this theology doesn’t mean other Christians don’t.

Sorry, I don’t like people assuming intent. If you’d like to know why I don’t believe, you could ask.

Christian theology is diverse, and if you believe in the non-human Jesus thing proposed I think that’s interesting, but most other Christians would disagree. As stated, it would solve the decomp problem, but it’s not really widely supported. I mean, how do you solve the decomp problem?

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(March 7, 2019 at 10:19 am)tackattack Wrote: I don't believe he decomposed. His flesh died, prior to the resurrection. Typically, the soul (breath) was abandoned “to Sheol,” and the body saw corruption or decayed when someone died.
It's not explicit what happened to his body, other than it wasn't there after 3 days. Maybe it was eaten or decayed faster than 3 days, maybe it was burnt up, or spirited away by angels, no one really knows or cares. He gave his flesh for the life of the world and when he appeared after the resurrection, didn't need that flesh anymore.

So it wasn’t a physical human body that rose up? Then what about when Thomas put his fingers in the wound? Was this a “spiritual body” that just resembled the body that died upon the cross?

It’s also part of some church’s cannon that jesus’ body (usually with him in it post resurrection) rose physically into heaven. Do you consider this to be heretical?

(March 7, 2019 at 2:09 am)Godscreated Wrote:  If you ever studied theology you either had a terrible teacher who doesn't know squat about what the scriptures teach or you never listened and put together a story from the small amount that you did hear. The things you have posted above are totally untrue and unfounded according to the scriptures, it's no wonder you haven't found a reason to believe.

GC

So, how do you think Jesus managed to come back from being this:



and become this?:

(March 7, 2019 at 12:36 pm)Rev. Rye Wrote:

(March 7, 2019 at 2:09 am)Godscreated Wrote:  If you ever studied theology you either had a terrible teacher who doesn't know squat about what the scriptures teach or you never listened and put together a story from the small amount that you did hear. The things you have posted above are totally untrue and unfounded according to the scriptures, it's no wonder you haven't found a reason to believe.

GC

So, how do you think Jesus managed to come back from being this:

and become this?:

A ring of regeneration.

(March 7, 2019 at 11:24 am)Natachan Wrote:

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(March 7, 2019 at 10:19 am)tackattack Wrote: I don't believe he decomposed. His flesh died, prior to the resurrection. Typically, the soul (breath) was abandoned “to Sheol,” and the body saw corruption or decayed when someone died.
It's not explicit what happened to his body, other than it wasn't there after 3 days. Maybe it was eaten or decayed faster than 3 days, maybe it was burnt up, or spirited away by angels, no one really knows or cares. He gave his flesh for the life of the world and when he appeared after the resurrection, didn't need that flesh anymore.

So it wasn’t a physical human body that rose up? Then what about when Thomas put his fingers in the wound? Was this a “spiritual body” that just resembled the body that died upon the cross?

It’s also part of some church’s cannon that jesus’ body (usually with him in it post resurrection) rose physically into heaven. Do you consider this to be heretical?

---

I doubt most church goers really get that granular with their belief, from my experience.

I believe scripture is fairly clear that his resurrection body (spiritual as you call it) was different than His Earthly(natural) body.
1. Why would a resurrected and Holy Jesus, want to put on the old flesh that was sacrificed for man's sin? I equate it to deciding to go to the ball in your 10 grade prom cumberbun after retrieving it from the dump after 20 years.
2. He had several ancillary affects after His resurrection like entering closed rooms, disappearing, not needing to rest, ascension, radiating light from eyes. All of which most commonly we could refer to as supernatural.
3. I don't consider His post-resurrection body to by non-physical like a ghost.

In scripture 1 Cor. 15:35-51

Quote:

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35 But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” 36 How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38 But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39 Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41 The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”[f]; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we[g] bear the image of the heavenly man. 50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

---

It describes a different body, this one is just a seed that will grow into a better (imperishable, powerful, glorified, spiritual, Holy made from heaven). First was the natural, then the spirit was added. When this natural body perishes the spirit continues and one day will be reunited with a new body. I believe that summarizes the majority belief in resurrection bodies. I apologize for the length, I've hidden for brevity.

(March 7, 2019 at 3:18 pm)tackattack Wrote:

(March 7, 2019 at 11:24 am)Natachan Wrote:

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So it wasn’t a physical human body that rose up? Then what about when Thomas put his fingers in the wound? Was this a “spiritual body” that just resembled the body that died upon the cross?

It’s also part of some church’s cannon that jesus’ body (usually with him in it post resurrection) rose physically into heaven. Do you consider this to be heretical?

---

I doubt most church goers really get that granular with their belief, from my experience.

I believe scripture is fairly clear that his resurrection body (spiritual as you call it) was different than His Earthly(natural) body.

You believe many things.

Quote:1. Why would a resurrected and Holy Jesus, want to put on the old flesh that was sacrificed for man's sin? I equate it to deciding to go to the ball in your 10 grade prom cumberbun after retrieving it from the dump after 20 years.

-and yet that's what "jesus" allegedly did.  He didn't appear in spirit to his disciples as he appeared in spirit to paul on a road, he appeared bodily...holes and all.

Quote:2. He had several ancillary affects after His resurrection like entering closed rooms, disappearing, not needing to rest, ascension, radiating light from eyes. All of which most commonly we could refer to as supernatural.

LOL....you're the resurrection doctor, now, diagnosing symptoms of a nonexistent condition?

Quote:3. I don't consider His post-resurrection body to by non-physical like a ghost.

Good for you.  Magic book asserts otherwise.  

Quote:

Quote:In scripture 1 Cor. 15:35-51

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35 But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” 36 How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38 But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39 Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41 The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”[f]; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we[g] bear the image of the heavenly man. 50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

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It describes a different body, this one is just a seed that will grow into a better (imperishable, powerful, glorified, spiritual, Holy made from heaven). First was the natural, then the spirit was added. When this natural body perishes the spirit continues and one day will be reunited with a new body. I believe that summarizes the majority belief in resurrection bodies. I apologize for the length, I've hidden for brevity.

"It" does no such thing.  "It" explicitly appeals to a natural understanding of growth and bodies by means of seeds and planting. Mind, I'm not commenting on the validity of the belief (though obviously I could). Only noting that your beliefs, of your many beliefs, are a heretical extrapolation.

The thing to keep in mind, amusingly enough (in that you can't)..is that while we moderns seem to see a difference between the "natural" and "supernatural" - there was no such distinction for people 2k years ago...nor can any such distinction be argued for, today, if we accept the supernatural claims of old and new magic book. Your retconning of "jesus" into a ghost is a demonstration of the efficacy of metaphysical naturalism. The notion was, itself, rejected out of hand as heresy centuries ago. The idea being that if christ was not bodily incarnated and bodily resurrected, the central premises of the christian faith are false. Or, as "Paul" puts it....directly preceding your quoted source....

Quote: But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.

20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.”[c] Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

29 Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them? 30 And as for us, why do we endanger ourselves every hour? 31 I face death every day—yes, just as surely as I boast about you in Christ Jesus our Lord. 32 If I fought wild beasts in Ephesus with no more than human hopes, what have I gained? If the dead are not raised,

“Let us eat and drink,
for tomorrow we die.”[d]

33 Do not be misled: “Bad company corrupts good character.”[e] 34 Come back to your senses as you ought, and stop sinning; for there are some who are ignorant of God—I say this to your shame.

TLDR version... "No zombies, no christ". :Looks Around: Aint no fuckin zombies Tack..................... the author of christianity, himself, provides the singlemost incontrovertible disproval of christian belief.



Meanwhile, in Mere Reality, 1st corinthians is the masterwork of a pastoral ideology that had formed as early as exile in response to the utter subsumation of isrealite civilization into foreign empire juxtaposed against the seeming mercy that the judaic hinterlands experienced (but only for a time..they ended up losing and being transported, too).

You...fucking...people™...are ridiculous.

That's the one thing I can never escape about christers. Even if christian theology was meaningfully or fundamentally true, christian theology as espoused is demonstrably (and simply) false. The 19th century push to "mere christianity" was a failure. Folks opted for the fantastic over the measured to their (and your) perpetual shame....even before the lord of hosts. Ever consider that? The moment that you first meet god..and he just flat out laughs at your beliefs and ambulations in their defense?

No one. NO ONE....should be more critical of myth than True Believers™. We heathens, by comparison, should be the softball team.

(March 7, 2019 at 3:32 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote: numbering added for clarity

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(March 7, 2019 at 3:18 pm)tackattack Wrote: 1. Why would a resurrected and Holy Jesus, want to put on the old flesh that was sacrificed for man's sin? I equate it to deciding to go to the ball in your 10 grade prom cumberbun after retrieving it from the dump after 20 years.

1.-and yet that's what "jesus" allegedly did.  He didn't appear in spirit to his disciples as he appeared in spirit to paul on a road, he appeared bodily...holes and all.

Quote:2. He had several ancillary affects after His resurrection like entering closed rooms, disappearing, not needing to rest, ascension, radiating light from eyes. All of which most commonly we could refer to as supernatural.

LOL....you're the resurrection doctor, now, diagnosing symptoms of a nonexistent condition?

Quote:3. I don't consider His post-resurrection body to by non-physical like a ghost.

Good for you.  Magic book asserts otherwise.  

Quote:4. It describes a different body, this one is just a seed that will grow into a better (imperishable, powerful, glorified, spiritual, Holy made from heaven). First was the natural, then the spirit was added. When this natural body perishes the spirit continues and one day will be reunited with a new body. I believe that summarizes the majority belief in resurrection bodies. I apologize for the length, I've hidden for brevity.

"It" does no such thing.  "It" explicitly appeals to a natural understanding of growth and bodies by means of seeds and planting.  Mind, I'm not commenting on the validity of the belief (though obviously I could).  Only noting that your beliefs, of your many beliefs, are a heretical extrapolation.

The thing to keep in mind, amusingly enough (in that you can't)..is that while we moderns seem to see a difference between the "natural" and "supernatural" - there was no such distinction for people 2k years ago...nor can any such distinction be argued for, today, if we accept the supernatural claims of old and new magic book.  Your retconning of "jesus" into a ghost is a demonstration of the efficacy of metaphysical naturalism.  The notion was, itself, rejected out of hand as heresy centuries ago.  The idea being that if christ was not bodily incarnated and bodily resurrected, the central premises of the christian faith are false.  Or, as "Paul" puts it....directly preceding your quoted source....

Quote: But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.

20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.”[c] Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

29 Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them? 30 And as for us, why do we endanger ourselves every hour? 31 I face death every day—yes, just as surely as I boast about you in Christ Jesus our Lord. 32 If I fought wild beasts in Ephesus with no more than human hopes, what have I gained? If the dead are not raised,

“Let us eat and drink,
   for tomorrow we die.”[d]

33 Do not be misled: “Bad company corrupts good character.”[e] 34 Come back to your senses as you ought, and stop sinning; for there are some who are ignorant of God—I say this to your shame.

TLDR version... "No zombies, no christ".  :Looks Around:   Aint no fuckin zombies Tack..................... the author of christianity, himself, provides the singlemost incontrovertible disproval of christian belief.

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I think you're mis-characterizing my stance Gae:

1. You're conflating definitions on spiritual which I was patently trying to avoid. His resurrection body wasn't exclusively ethereal (Paul n the road in Acts 9), but could be physical as attested to by someone putting fingers in wounds and grabbing a bite with them (Acts 10).
Simplest Meme to make out of it is the stay puff in Ghostbusters, Able to chose the form in which it appears. I'm sure somone will make the meme. Holey for the doubters and ephemeral for the faithful.

2. Not prescribing just describing, since an opinion was asked, and given. I have no authority over Christian belief as a whole, just my interpretation of scripture.

3. See one, post resurrection he disappeared when he wanted and could take different forms and have physicality. The point being a distinct difference from the natural body He prior held.

4. I do believe in a bodily resurrection, of Christ and us. I believe Christ was first and some of the rest of us will come later. I do not know what the characteristics of a heavenly body will consist of. The Bible does describe attributes to us that we colloquially refer to today as supernatural, spiritual or ghost like.

Overarchingly, I'm not sure what the characteristic are of a heavenly body versus a natural body. I know what a natural body's limitation are as I'm living in one. Maybe it will be more genetic information ala 5th element, mutant powers, different senses, shapeshifting, idk. I de believe we will be reunited with the molecules of or original body, and then transformed, then ascended. There's nothing heretical about any of that.


Your added section wasn't to the points, but feel free to rant away, I don't think that's anything other than a rant.

(March 6, 2019 at 4:57 pm)Natachan Wrote: So, a question for religious people who believe that Jesus died and resurrected.

Within a few minutes of death the brain becomes so damaged as to be incapable of sustaining most higher functions. A few more minutes and it can’t communicate with other parts of the body. A few hours later the neurons that physically contract the muscles will break down. After this the body cannot, through its own power, move or maintain any functions.

The story goes that Jesus was dead for (conservatively) nearly 48 hours. Under normal conditions, even with refrigeration, the brain is now mush and the neurons are now gone. The process of decomposition has progressed to such an extent coming back is impossible. And we’re not talking about best case, this is long enough to start to stink. Hell, at this point insects should have showed up.

So, did Jesus decompose prior to his resurrection? If so, how did he resurrect? If not, why not?

It was a miracle. I say this with a straight face.