Lambs aren't generally liars.

(March 18, 2019 at 3:34 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote: It's a version of number one.

That seems like the default hypothesis, and the simplest explanation. I’d have to go for this if forced to pick. It would be easier to accept if there weren’t quite so many oddities "occurring" though. Some of them look just like what I’d expect if someone was actively fucking with the text.

Thanks very much for everyone’s input! I’ll be investigating this further, if I can figure out how it’s even possible to do so.

The conclusion it would be tentative to draw is that people don’t read their bibles as much as they claim, or at least they don’t concentrate properly when they do. But this is rather patronising and assuming.

PS: oh yes, it’s the KJV in which most of the fuckery occurs, although the lion/lamb has apparently never appeared in any version.

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PPS: there’s so many videos of people "disproving" the ME by just reading out what bibles (currently) say. They clearly have no idea of what they’re even trying to address.

(March 18, 2019 at 2:49 pm)robvalue Wrote: Everyone probably already thinks I’ve gone crazy, so I may as well explain things.

I personally remember "lion and lamb" and have never ever heard anything about a wolf. This is all second hand, though. To me, the culture has been entirely permeated with the lion. References to it are everywhere: in media, statues, direct quotes on the internet, even one article quoting lion with a link right next to it that shows you it’s actually wolf.

A lot of people will swear blind that they literally learned parts of the bible by heart, and that it said lion. It’s amazing how this "mistake" has gone unchecked for so long. I’ve never once heard anyone challenge it (although I don’t have religious folks around me much, to be fair.)

It’s not just this, either. There’s many other things in the bible people will swear are different to when they memorised it. And I don’t just mean different on the internet, different in all the books. Some examples (although I can get more):

"Wine skins" has become "bottles"
"Matrix", "stuff" and even an emoticon have come out of nowhere into the text
The Lord’s Prayer says "which art in heaven", not "who are in heaven"

And so on.

This leaves me with three explanations:

1) There have been innocent myths about the bible, which have become so pervasive that they have screwed with the memories of millions of people, even those who learnt verses by heart, and the incorrect text somehow never managed to push back.

2) There has been one or more psychological operations run to coerce people into misremembering.

3) People aren’t misremembering and the text has actually been changed (the Mandela effect).

The problem here is that all three of these are seemingly ludicrous explanations. I am open minded so I don’t instantly rule anything out, but the problem with the ME (besides being "supernatural") is that it’s untestable. Some who support the ME think that people at CERN have found a way to fuck with reality and are experimenting.

I don’t believe any of those 3, as they’re all extremely weak and convoluted. That leaves me with nothing. It’s extremely interesting, at least.

This is one of many videos I’ve found where someone who believes it is the ME has investigated. I think the results are very interesting and worth hearing. It’s a conversation with a pastor who has supposedly read the text before and says it was lion.





Lastly, and hilariously, there are many people trying to debunk the ME relating to this. Obviously doing so is as fruitless as trying to prove it. The fact they are trying, despite making them look stupid, is somewhat suspicious to some people. The funniest thing of all is that I found such a video, looking entirely serious, on a channel called "lion and lamb ministries".

Thank you for anyone who made it through my nonsense!

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(March 18, 2019 at 2:16 pm)tackattack Wrote: I stand corrected, but you did say from memory and I'm old and distracted. Was there a question or confusion about the passage?

The whole question is whether you really did remember wrong, or not. Like you say, it was in a song. I doubt you got that part wrong, it’s probably all over songs as much as anything else.

Lion and the lamb has a better ring to it, it's been used in songs etc... So it's not surprising we remember the catchy tunes over the actual verse.

And it's not really wrong either, the lion browsing with the calf, and the wolf being a guest of the lamb, are analogous. So switching out the lion and the wolf here expresses the same point. The entire passage appears to be about some future peaceable kingdom, absent of the hostility and violence of ours, even in nature.

(March 19, 2019 at 2:16 am)robvalue Wrote: That seems like the default hypothesis, and the simplest explanation. I’d have to go for this if forced to pick. It would be easier to accept if there weren’t quite so many oddities "occurring" though. Some of them look just like what I’d expect if someone was actively fucking with the text.

Well...people are.  This sort of thing is part of how the stories came to us in the form we have them now to begin with.  Nobody needs to go house to house with whiteout changing personal copies of magic book, and no one ever needed to do that.  

Quote:Thanks very much for everyone’s input! I’ll be investigating this further, if I can figure out how it’s even possible to do so.

The conclusion it would be tentative to draw is that people don’t read their bibles as much as they claim, or at least they don’t concentrate properly when they do. But this is rather patronising and assuming.

It has the benefit of being true, though.  The whole "I know every jot and tittle of the word of the Lawd!" thing is pious theater.  Always has been, anytime people set out to study it they find the same thing.  

IDK what other occurrences and oddities you have in mind...but people mis-remembering things isn't all that surprising, and in this case a bunch of people may have never known the verse to begin with.  Then you've got culture using the imagery, and the mistaken belief amounts to an alliterative phrase.  Then, lions are mentioned in the passage anyway, which I actually didn't remember even though I remembered wolves and sheep.  Probably because there aren't any lions where I'm from and I'm not in the subculture that emphasizes the imagery, lol.

Even if there actually were people going door to door with whiteout, they wouldn't have to touch this one, and even if they were touching things..they're obviously not touching this one...because there it is in black and white all the same.  We can repeat the same comments with memories instead of magic book.  Nobody needs any help to get this sort of thing wrong.

(March 18, 2019 at 11:44 am)robvalue Wrote: Hi guys, I’ve come across something deeply strange and I’d like to gather some opinions to see what is going on. Please answer the following questions from memory, without/before looking anything up. I’ll explain what is going on after gathering some answers. It’s not any kind of trick question, it’s just information which will help me try to understand something.

(If you’re familiar with this and you do look it up afterwards, you may well become aware of what I’m talking about. But let’s see.)

1) In the Bible, what animal is said to lie with the lamb?

2) Do you remember reading this passage directly from a bible, or did you hear about it second hand?

Many thanks! I won’t give my answer to 1 just yet as I don’t want to influence the outcome. But I’ve not spent much time reading the Bible directly so my answer to 2 will be second hand.

PS:

If you guys have any Christian friends, especially ones that have read the Bible a lot, I’d be interested if you could report back their answers to these questions.

(To be clear, I’m interested in what people remember, not what the Bible actually says.)

Although Isaiah 35:9 casts a lion metaphorically as forbidden in the future paradise ("No lion shall be there, nor any ravenous beast shall go up thereon, it shall not be found there; but the redeemed shall walk there"); in 11:6,7, Isaiah references such formerly ravenous beasts as become peaceable: "The lion will live with the lamb, the leopard will lie down with the goat, the calf and the lion and the yearling together; and a little child will lead them. The cow will feed with the bear, their young will lie down together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox."[3]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_lamb_and_lion

the lion laying down with the lamb is a a term that has been adopted by the latter day saints. they have popularized this saing over what the bible has to say. which is consistent with how most of their religious teachings work.. has a familiar biblical ring but changed just enough to be their own thing and not of the God of the bible.

(March 19, 2019 at 9:40 am)Gae Bolga Wrote:

(March 19, 2019 at 2:16 am)robvalue Wrote: That seems like the default hypothesis, and the simplest explanation. I’d have to go for this if forced to pick. It would be easier to accept if there weren’t quite so many oddities "occurring" though. Some of them look just like what I’d expect if someone was actively fucking with the text.

Well...people are.  This sort of thing is part of how the stories came to us in the form we have them now to begin with.  Nobody needs to go house to house with whiteout changing personal copies of magic book, and no one ever needed to do that.  

Quote:Thanks very much for everyone’s input! I’ll be investigating this further, if I can figure out how it’s even possible to do so.

The conclusion it would be tentative to draw is that people don’t read their bibles as much as they claim, or at least they don’t concentrate properly when they do. But this is rather patronising and assuming.

It has the benefit of being true, though.  The whole "I know every jot and tittle of the word of the Lawd!" thing is pious theater.  Always has been, anytime people set out to study it they find the same thing.  

IDK what other occurrences and oddities you have in mind...but people mis-remembering things isn't all that surprising, and in this case a bunch of people may have never known the verse to begin with.  Then you've got culture using the imagery, and the mistaken belief amounts to an alliterative phrase.  Then, lions are mentioned in the passage anyway, which I actually didn't remember even though I remembered wolves and sheep.  Probably because there aren't any lions where I'm from and I'm not in the subculture that emphasizes the imagery, lol.

Even if there actually were people going door to door with whiteout, they wouldn't have to touch this one, and even if they were touching things..they're obviously not touching this one...because there it is in black and white all the same.  We can repeat the same comments with memories instead of magic book.  Nobody needs any help to get this sort of thing wrong.

I suppose that taken at face value, it goes to show something I used to say quite a bit: it doesn’t matter what the bible says, it matters what people think it says. It’s just amazing to me that such innaccuracies could get out of control, even in heavily religious areas.

I find some of the things fascinating though, such as the word "stuff" appearing in the KJV. What the fuck is that doing there, that word can’t have existed at the time it was inserted can it? Even if it did, what scholar would put it into the Bible?

We'll have to see what other changes occur / have occurred

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PS: The thing is, the hypothesis, "It happened by chance and people have misremembered" has to be falsifiable at some point, or else it’s simply an ad-hoc explanation. Deciding exactly what point it stops being adequate isn’t something that can be easily statistically qualified of course.

Anyone trying to translate a language? In any case, the specific item in question didn't happen by chance, there are clear levers at play. The faulty nature of human memory, tendencies to pious theater, culturally important imagery, the proximity of terms in the text, and alliterative satisfaction are not "chance".

(March 19, 2019 at 9:45 am)Drich Wrote:

(March 18, 2019 at 11:44 am)robvalue Wrote: Hi guys, I’ve come across something deeply strange and I’d like to gather some opinions to see what is going on. Please answer the following questions from memory, without/before looking anything up. I’ll explain what is going on after gathering some answers. It’s not any kind of trick question, it’s just information which will help me try to understand something.

(If you’re familiar with this and you do look it up afterwards, you may well become aware of what I’m talking about. But let’s see.)

1) In the Bible, what animal is said to lie with the lamb?

2) Do you remember reading this passage directly from a bible, or did you hear about it second hand?

Many thanks! I won’t give my answer to 1 just yet as I don’t want to influence the outcome. But I’ve not spent much time reading the Bible directly so my answer to 2 will be second hand.

PS:

If you guys have any Christian friends, especially ones that have read the Bible a lot, I’d be interested if you could report back their answers to these questions.

(To be clear, I’m interested in what people remember, not what the Bible actually says.)

Although Isaiah 35:9 casts a lion metaphorically as forbidden in the future paradise ("No lion shall be there, nor any ravenous beast shall go up thereon, it shall not be found there; but the redeemed shall walk there"); in 11:6,7, Isaiah references such formerly ravenous beasts as become peaceable: "The lion will live with the lamb, the leopard will lie down with the goat, the calf and the lion and the yearling together; and a little child will lead them. The cow will feed with the bear, their young will lie down together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox."[3]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_lamb_and_lion

the lion laying down with the lamb is a a term that has been adopted by the latter day saints. they have popularized this saing over what the bible has to say. which is consistent with how most of their religious teachings work.. has a familiar biblical ring but changed just enough to be their own thing and not of the God of the bible.

Really? Okay thanks, I didn’t know that. It would explain a lot.

The christian god isn't the god of magic book either.  Next up at ten, water....wet.

By "chance", I meant without a conspiracy to deliberately mislead. I could believe that a psy op was run to create such a situation, although I’m not sure it would be a worthy use of their resources. If there genuinely was an alternate version going around, that explains things further.