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RE: Comfort in Faith at Death
July 7, 2019 at 9:50 pm
(This post was last modified: July 7, 2019 at 10:44 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
You’re not opposed to something you find s generally bad influence that routinely produces behaviors you -are- opposed to?
Antitgeists have their own “why do you atheists eat babies” questions it has to field. Why are you so against comfort and do you have anything to replace contemporary Christian afterlives is one of them. It’s an absurdly silly objection to antitheism. Hockey and slurpees.
Here’s an easy way to check whether you find your own objection compelling. Does the comfort you think theism provides wash away the religious conflicts that you also think theism creates? Is the comfort of that person, available through myriad other means and beliefs ( and non beliefs) worth that? The zealot martyrs himself and finds comfort both by and for his theistic beliefs. Does his comfort make his martyrdom any less of a horrendous act?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Comfort in Faith at Death
July 7, 2019 at 10:58 pm
(This post was last modified: July 7, 2019 at 10:58 pm by Belacqua.)
(July 7, 2019 at 9:39 pm)Shell B Wrote: I began this by pointing out one of the merits of theism that lead me to be unable to utterly oppose theism, which is what antitheism is. Cutout the babble, antitheism is anti . . . theism. I am not opposed to theism. Therefore, I'm not anti-theist. I didn't say comfort in death has anything to do with you or antitheism. I said he has to do with me and my feelings about theism.
To me the danger of anti-theism, as practiced by many of the anti-theists I've encountered, is that it relies on a great deal of fantasizing. It imagines counter-factual states and history, and posits that these would be better. Granted, it's fun to imagine these things, but it's impossible to prove them. And such fantasies are very susceptible to ideological prejudices.
How can we possibly know that no theism in history, or in the present world, would be better? There is no reason to think that, when the irrationality of religion is removed, people become rational. Nor is there any way to measure whether the positive influences outweigh the negative ones.
I see no reason at all to think that a lack of theism in the world would improve things, though improved theism certainly could. (Better education, better economics, etc.)
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RE: Comfort in Faith at Death
July 7, 2019 at 11:09 pm
(This post was last modified: July 7, 2019 at 11:26 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
The worst effects of theism are very rational products of the belief.
The simple fact that you reference “improved theism” demonstrates that you understand exactly what antitheists are referring to, and agree. You’d like to see less if that, but imagine that improvement -for theism- runs along your own ideological grounds. It doesnt. The forms of theism you see today -are- the improved ones. They wiped the floor with the others.
It was nearly inevitable, since social movements are effected by selective pressures. The ability to exploit human fear and relationships is a competitive advantage for the spread of the movement.
Meanwhile, it’s entirely unclear how the belief in a personal and intervening god is supposed to improve education or economies. Correlation strongly trends in the opposite direction. Perhaps you could flesh that contention out?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Comfort in Faith at Death
July 8, 2019 at 12:15 am
I am old school.
Anti-theist = Against theism.
No need to complicate matters through word salad.
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RE: Comfort in Faith at Death
July 8, 2019 at 8:54 am
(July 7, 2019 at 9:50 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote: You’re not opposed to something you find s generally bad influence that routinely produces behaviors you -are- opposed to?
Antitgeists have their own “why do you atheists eat babies” questions it has to field. Why are you so against comfort and do you have anything to replace contemporary Christian afterlives is one of them. It’s an absurdly silly objection to antitheism. Hockey and slurpees.
Here’s an easy way to check whether you find your own objection compelling. Does the comfort you think theism provides wash away the religious conflicts that you also think theism creates? Is the comfort of that person, available through myriad other means and beliefs ( and non beliefs) worth that? The zealot martyrs himself and finds comfort both by and for his theistic beliefs. Does his comfort make his martyrdom any less of a horrendous act?
Who said you were against comfort?
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RE: Comfort in Faith at Death
July 8, 2019 at 8:56 am
(July 8, 2019 at 12:15 am)Fierce Wrote: I am old school.
Anti-theist = Against theism.
No need to complicate matters through word salad.
No shit. I don’t mind that people are anti theism. I’m just not, and I don’t see any reason to convolute the matter or take a stance of victim hood.
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RE: Comfort in Faith at Death
July 8, 2019 at 10:41 am
(This post was last modified: July 8, 2019 at 10:49 am by The Grand Nudger.)
A lot of people who are antitheists think that they aren’t on account of imagining antitheism to be something that it isn’t.
For example, the idea that to be an antitheist you have to go around slapping the comfort out of dying people.
You don’t. Antitheism lies more in acknowledging that some comforting beliefs have attendant negative effects on individuals and groups, and in any case where those effects can be reduced or even eliminated with a reduction in those beliefs....and especially when that comfort isn’t the sole possession of those beliefs, it would be better to discourage that specific belief and reduce its authority and purchase in society.
Antitheism is a common and uncontroversial opinion for atheists and theists alike, with an unfortunately sensationalized name.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Comfort in Faith at Death
July 8, 2019 at 10:55 am
(July 8, 2019 at 10:41 am)Gae Bolga Wrote: A lot of people who are antitheists think that they aren’t on account of imagining antitheism to be something that it isn’t.
I think you're hinting that I'm an antitheist when I'm not. Be careful there. I've known theists to tell me I'm not an atheist when I am. If you're selling the same garbage, you're not very different.
Quote:For example, the idea that to be an antitheist you have to go around slapping the comfort out of dying people.
Who the fuck said or even hinted that? Nobody. I said I like that comfort enough that it leads me not to oppose theism. I didn't say antitheists are going around fucking with the dying. Ugh. That I even have to say that is frustrating.
Quote:Antitheism lies more in acknowledging that some comforting beliefs have attendant negative effects on individuals and groups, and in any case where those effects can be reduced or even eliminated with a reduction in those beliefs....and especially when that comfort isn’t the sole possession of those beliefs, it would be better to discourage that specific belief and reduce its authority and purchase in society.
I don't agree with you, and therefore I am not antitheist.
Quote:Antitheism is a common and uncontroversial opinion for atheists and theists alike, with an unfortunately sensationalized name.
Sadly, you've been the only person here treating it like it's sensationalized. Relax, man. No one is taking digs at your precious antitheism. I merely stated I'm not an antitheist and then asked how people felt about religious comfort at death. This was never a conversation about antitheism or a dig at it. I don't care about antitheism any more than I care about theism.
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RE: Comfort in Faith at Death
July 8, 2019 at 10:58 am
(This post was last modified: July 8, 2019 at 11:07 am by The Grand Nudger.)
As an interesting aside, Christianity picked up its antitheist ( or maltheist, if we prefer) undercurrents in the assumption of Greek thought - wherein the intervening divine persons could be thought of as capricious and it’s belief detrimental to humanity.
This gets compartmentalized, ofc, like so many other thoughts in the set. -Those- gods and belief in - those- gods is bad, not ours....but it’s difficult to find any of those arguments against belief in other gods that don’t fundamentally apply to belief in any fundamentally similar god.
You haven’t disagreed with any antitheist contention yet, shell. You disagreed with something that antitheism wasnt.
This thread literally began with you mentioning that the reason you weren’t an antitheist was.......
.........?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Comfort in Faith at Death
July 8, 2019 at 11:07 am
Let's try this one more time. The DEFINITION of antitheism is opposition to theism. I DO NOT oppose theism.
Is that clear enough for you? I've repeatedly said it. I never said antitheism is taking away the comfort of the dying. You said that I said that, but any idiot can see I didn't. Chill. No one is trying to take away your precious antitheism. Geez. If I never cared about it before, I'm starting to think it's a bit for crazy people.
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