(September 2, 2019 at 1:37 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(September 2, 2019 at 1:24 pm)Jehanne Wrote: The early Christians forged documents; such is not disputed by any scholar.

Umm...ok.

Boru

They (the early Christians) made things up, embellished other aspects of Jesus' life, plagiarized, poorly translated, forged and then made errors in copying the early manuscripts.  Still, there is enough historical evidence for scholars to concluded, firmly, that there was a historical Jesus who was executed under the governorship of Pontius Pilate.

(September 2, 2019 at 1:52 pm)Jehanne Wrote:

(September 2, 2019 at 1:37 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Umm...ok.

Boru

They (the early Christians) made things up, embellished other aspects of Jesus' life, plagiarized, poorly translated, forged and then made errors in copying the early manuscripts.  Still, there is enough historical evidence for scholars to concluded, firmly, that there was a historical Jesus who was executed under the governorship of Pontius Pilate.

Okay, just not sure why you're telling me.

Boru

(September 2, 2019 at 1:52 pm)Jehanne Wrote: .  Still, there is enough historical evidence for scholars to concluded, firmly, that there was a historical Jesus who was executed under the governorship of Pontius Pilate.

Like what evidence?

(September 2, 2019 at 2:18 pm)Fake Messiah Wrote:

(September 2, 2019 at 1:52 pm)Jehanne Wrote: .  Still, there is enough historical evidence for scholars to concluded, firmly, that there was a historical Jesus who was executed under the governorship of Pontius Pilate.

Like what evidence?

Seriously, dude?  You can go to just about any Catholic cathedral in Europe and find pieces of the True Cross.  What more evidence do you need??

Of course, this means that Jesus was crucified on a cross roughly eight hundred feet high, but let's not get bogged down in details...

Boru

Seriously, whole Jesus trial is actually believed to be based on a real historical person and that was Jesus ben-Ananias. He was considered a crazy guy who went down the streets and yelled that something bad will happen to Jerusalem and since his constant screaming annoyed people they gave him to Roman procurator Albinus who punished him by whipping, or something like that, and released him.

So four years later, Jerusalem gets to be under siege and people remember that this guy "predicted" it and they get creeped out.

So you can't say that Jesus was completely invented but there is an actual historical person inside it all and that is Jesus ben-Ananias.

(August 30, 2019 at 4:02 am)Godscreated Wrote: You should at the least read the scriptures before condemning them. It's very apparent that you have a tremendous lack of biblical knowledge. Jesus told his disciples that the Holy Spirit would bring back to them the memory and details of Jesus life, this is what is meant by divine inspiration. Being that the Holy Spirit is the third part of the God Head and knows all that happens with God He then would be able to recount the prayers of Jesus word for word and then inspire them to be written down. it is quite rational and holds true as the way the scriptures came into being.

How is this rational?  How did the writers know it was the christian god that inspired them?  How did they differentiate between what was from god and what was from themselves?  How is this not believing inspiration with no evidence?

(September 2, 2019 at 2:21 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(September 2, 2019 at 2:18 pm)Fake Messiah Wrote: Like what evidence?

Seriously, dude?  You can go to just about any Catholic cathedral in Europe and find pieces of the True Cross.  What more evidence do you need??

Of course, this means that Jesus was crucified on a cross roughly eight hundred feet high, but let's not get bogged down in details...

Boru

No first rate scholar doubts the existence of the historical Jesus.

(September 6, 2019 at 9:40 pm)Jehanne Wrote: No first rate scholar doubts the existence of the historical Jesus.

So Richard Carrier is not first rate scholar? How come? Or Thomas L. Thompson, Edwin Johnson, Arthur Drews, Robert M. Price, Earl Doherty, Michel Onfray, Frank Zindler...

Sure, we could ask "How come all historians are on the side of Jesus mythicism?"
Because Jesus Myth is kryptonite for Christianity. If you’re a believer, you can find ways to twist your faith to make room for evolution; Christians do it all the time, and in increasing numbers these days. But you can’t very well pull off that same trick to accommodate Jesus Myth.
And, that's why in the west there are still many historians officially believing that Jesus was historical person, just like you have plenty of historians in India believing that Krishna was based on a real person. People want to be historians but they don't necessarily want to come in conflict with other people's religions.

(September 7, 2019 at 12:57 am)Fake Messiah Wrote:

(September 6, 2019 at 9:40 pm)Jehanne Wrote: No first rate scholar doubts the existence of the historical Jesus.

So Richard Carrier is not first rate scholar? How come? Or Thomas L. Thompson, Edwin Johnson, Arthur Drews, Robert M. Price, Earl Doherty, Michel Onfray, Frank Zindler...

Sure, we could ask "How come all historians are on the side of Jesus mythicism?"
Because Jesus Myth is kryptonite for Christianity. If you’re a believer, you can find ways to twist your faith to make room for evolution; Christians do it all the time, and in increasing numbers these days. But you can’t very well pull off that same trick to accommodate Jesus Myth.
And, that's why in the west there are still many historians officially believing that Jesus was historical person, just like you have plenty of historians in India believing that Krishna was based on a real person. People want to be historians but they don't necessarily want to come in conflict with other people's religions.

I do not know where Richard Carrier is getting his money these days; to my knowledge, he never secured a teaching position at any of the 3K+ colleges across North America.  He is kind of like a medical school graduate who never became a doctor, but instead, decided to drive a taxi for a living.

That Jesus of Nazareth existed is beyond an historical certainty.  Having said that, the historical record is just as equally clear that Jesus was a Jewish, apocalyptic prophet who believed in a flat earth and that an angel from Heaven would descend (literally) to liberate the Jewish people from the Romans.  That message is what got Jesus in trouble when he brought his message to the Temple in Jerusalem, that's what got him arrested and what, ultimately, got him executed by the Romans for sedition.

(September 7, 2019 at 7:49 am)Jehanne Wrote: I do not know where Richard Carrier is getting his money these days; to my knowledge, he never secured a teaching position at any of the 3K+ colleges across North America.  He is kind of like a medical school graduate who never became a doctor, but instead, decided to drive a taxi for a living.

Hey you know how it is: to work for university that examines New Testament historicity you usually must acknowledge that Jesus was a historical person or you lose your job. For instance Paulogia spoke and showed recently how university for which William Lane Craig works demands you first sign a paper that you believe how Jesus resurrected and that Bible is inerrant



Look at the video it is shortly after 19.00

https://youtu.be/z2XByuP8Gsc

(September 7, 2019 at 7:49 am)Jehanne Wrote: the historical record

But what historical record? Bible?

(September 7, 2019 at 7:49 am)Jehanne Wrote: Jesus was a Jewish, apocalyptic prophet

But why focus on Jesus being apocalyptic prophet? Why not Violent Zealot Revolutionary? I mean this is what Reza Aslan and few other claim. You know a political messiah, inciting a revolt against the Romans, like Theudas or “the Egyptian,” the unnamed Messianic figure Josephus describes, or the two “robbers” crucified with Jesus (since rebel bandits were commonly referred to as robbers). Are you saying you know more than Reza Aslan?

Or why not see him as a Nonviolent Pacifist Resister? As Bruce Malina and others have argued, Jesus isn’t called the Prince of Peace for nothing. Are you saying you know more than Bruce Malina?