(December 10, 2019 at 3:08 pm)Simon Moon Wrote:

(December 10, 2019 at 11:16 am)Atomic Lava Wrote: I don't consider myself an atheist, however more of an agnostic. I can't say that God exists, but I also can't deny it. Because I really don't know. I'm not all knowing. But I'm curious to hear why you became an atheist, or even why you are an agnostic like myself.

So, as a follow up to my post #19, let me ask you a question. This will relate to belief, not knowledge.

Given that 'belief' is defined by cognitive scientists and philosophers of mind as, the psychological state in which one accepts a premise or proposition as being true. In other words, if one accepts a premise or proposition as being true, they can be said to believe said premise or proposition.

Also, given that belief is a binary mental state*, i.e., one either accepts a premise or proposition as being true, or they don't accept it as being true, do you accept the premise that a god exists as being true?

*I have yet to have someone coherently explain how one could possibly be in some middle ground between accepting a premise as being true, and not accepting it as being true, simultaneously.

I agree and I was going to point out the same thing, Agnostic is not a middle ground between theist and atheist. Either you believe the premise a god exists or you do not, it is impossible to have a middle ground.

Witnessing the Toxicity spread by religious folks. Often in the name of their religion.

(December 10, 2019 at 7:47 pm)Cecelia Wrote: Witnessing the Toxicity spread by religious folks. Often in the name of their religion.

How does that make it seem less true?

(December 10, 2019 at 8:11 pm)CarveTheFive Wrote:

(December 10, 2019 at 7:47 pm)Cecelia Wrote: Witnessing the Toxicity spread by religious folks. Often in the name of their religion.

How does that make it seem less true?

I often think that if there truly was an all knowing, loving god, it wouldn’t let its fanclub get away with some of the things they do in its name.

I grew up in a Catholic household. My religious indoctrination began even before I was old enough to attend school. I can still recall how my mother taught me to say simple prayers and that the world was created by God from nothing. I was skeptical of this outrageous claim, even at the tender age of four or five years.

I attended three Catholic schools during my youth. Each class featured about 40 minutes of daily prayers and anywhere from an hour to three hours of religious instruction and study. Students were literally smothered in a miasma of religion. Walls were festooned with religious imagery and there were statues of Jesus, Mary and the saints everywhere. Only the restrooms were free of this nonsense. Every book, regardless of subject, contained religious imagery. I can still recall how most of the geography books I had to study featured articles on churches, missions and famous saints in each country around the world. History books concentrated more on the history of the Church than that of the world.

Fear was an essential element of my indoctrination. Nuns were especially fond of scaring their students with tales of the horrors of Hell. These stories were frequently supplemented by horrific imageries of Hell, guaranteed to traumatize young minds. Physical abuse was also an acceptable teaching tool. Slow learners were apt to have their hair pulled and their faces slapped, not to mention being struck with rulers and oaken rods. My 8th grade nun's favorite method of abuse, which she carried out with great frequency and relish, was to seize a boy by the cheeks or hair and repeatedly bash his head against a wall. This happened at a time in which a public school teacher would have gone to jail for similar behavior.

My first serious cracks in my faith occurred when I had to study the Bible. Even the bowdlerized Catholic version I had to read revealed a God who was anything but loving and benevolent, but rather an insecure, malevolent, egotistical tyrant. The Book of Job, in particular, turned my stomach.

My senior religion classes included learning proofs of God’s existence. Students weren’t supposed to discuss and critique them, however. We were required to memorize and accept them as true. Being an amateur student of astronomy, I debunked the Kalam Cosmological Argument as it had been interpreted by St. Thomas Aquinas.

I attended a secular college after high school, which turned out to be a breath of fresh air. I was able to discuss science and religion with many students of other faiths, although I can’t recall meeting any atheists at this time. I still identified myself as Roman Catholic, but my faith was pretty weak by then and I was neglecting to attend Sunday services with increasing frequency.

Following my service in Vietnam, and having witnessed some of the horrors of war, I identified myself as an agnostic. I read a number of books on religion and comparative religious study over the next decade. Some time in the late 1970’s I saw Madalyn Murray-O’Hair on the Phil Donahue Show and was quite impressed with her arguments against religion. I decided to subscribe to her magazine THE AMERICAN ATHEIST. The October, 1982 issue featured an article titled The Agnostic’s Dilemma, which was an epiphany for me. From that moment onward, I knew that I was an atheist and probably had been one for some time without realizing it.

(December 10, 2019 at 8:20 pm)The Valkyrie Wrote:

(December 10, 2019 at 8:11 pm)CarveTheFive Wrote: How does that make it seem less true?

I often think that if there truly was an all knowing, loving god, it wouldn’t let its fanclub get away with some of the things they do in its name.

I can kind of understand how people could believe in a fucked up piece of shit god. Like Westboro, their god is a fucking asshole which kind of makes sense if you believe humanity is his chief concern. You’d have to be a seriously twisted monster to create the human race. But a “loving” god? Even if you’re idiotic enough to be a theist you still have to make another equally outrageous jump deeper into the impossible to conclude it’s “loving”. Have these people never been outside?

(December 10, 2019 at 3:08 pm)Simon Moon Wrote:

(December 10, 2019 at 11:16 am)Atomic Lava Wrote: I don't consider myself an atheist, however more of an agnostic. I can't say that God exists, but I also can't deny it. Because I really don't know. I'm not all knowing. But I'm curious to hear why you became an atheist, or even why you are an agnostic like myself.

So, as a follow up to my post #19, let me ask you a question. This will relate to belief, not knowledge.

Given that 'belief' is defined by cognitive scientists and philosophers of mind as, the psychological state in which one accepts a premise or proposition as being true. In other words, if one accepts a premise or proposition as being true, they can be said to believe said premise or proposition.

Also, given that belief is a binary mental state*, i.e., one either accepts a premise or proposition as being true, or they don't accept it as being true, do you accept the premise that a god exists as being true?

*I have yet to have someone coherently explain how one could possibly be in some middle ground between accepting a premise as being true, and not accepting it as being true, simultaneously.

Very interesting. I don't think I am arguing that there is a God. However all I am saying is I am not all knowing - therefore I don't know everything. So how can I possibly know for sure if there is one or not? Of course that is my attitude towards it. And I have mets lots of people throughout my lifetime that share this same approach as well. You make some great points. I respect your thoughts. You seem like a good guy.

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(December 10, 2019 at 8:21 pm)Gwaithmir Wrote: I grew up in a Catholic household. My religious indoctrination began even before I was old enough to attend school. I can still recall how my mother taught me to say simple prayers and that the world was created by God from nothing. I was skeptical of this outrageous claim, even at the tender age of four or five years.

I attended three Catholic schools during my youth. Each class featured about 40 minutes of daily prayers and anywhere from an hour to three hours of religious instruction and study. Students were literally smothered in a miasma of religion. Walls were festooned with religious imagery and there were statues of Jesus, Mary and the saints everywhere. Only the restrooms were free of this nonsense. Every book, regardless of subject, contained religious imagery. I can still recall how most of the geography books I had to study featured articles on churches, missions and famous saints in each country around the world. History books concentrated more on the history of the Church than that of the world.

Fear was an essential element of my indoctrination. Nuns were especially fond of scaring their students with tales of the horrors of Hell. These stories were frequently supplemented by horrific imageries of Hell, guaranteed to traumatize young minds. Physical abuse was also an acceptable teaching tool. Slow learners were apt to have their hair pulled and their faces slapped, not to mention being struck with rulers and oaken rods. My 8th grade nun's favorite method of abuse, which she carried out with great frequency and relish, was to seize a boy by the cheeks or hair and repeatedly bash his head against a wall. This happened at a time in which a public school teacher would have gone to jail for similar behavior.

My first serious cracks in my faith occurred when I had to study the Bible. Even the bowdlerized Catholic version I had to read revealed a God who was anything but loving and benevolent, but rather an insecure, malevolent, egotistical tyrant. The Book of Job, in particular, turned my stomach.

My senior religion classes included learning proofs of God’s existence. Students weren’t supposed to discuss and critique them, however. We were required to memorize and accept them as true. Being an amateur student of astronomy, I debunked the Kalam Cosmological Argument as it had been interpreted by St. Thomas Aquinas.

I attended a secular college after high school, which turned out to be a breath of fresh air. I was able to discuss science and religion with many students of other faiths, although I can’t recall meeting any atheists at this time. I still identified myself as Roman Catholic, but my faith was pretty weak by then and I was neglecting to attend Sunday services with increasing frequency.

Following my service in Vietnam, and having witnessed some of the horrors of war, I identified myself as an agnostic. I read a number of books on religion and comparative religious study over the next decade. Some time in the late 1970’s I saw Madalyn Murray-O’Hair on the Phil Donahue Show and was quite impressed with her arguments against religion. I decided to subscribe to her magazine THE AMERICAN ATHEIST. The October, 1982 issue featured an article titled The Agnostic’s Dilemma, which was an epiphany for me. From that moment onward, I knew that I was an atheist and probably had been one for some time without realizing it.

Sorry you had to go through that. That's tough. I'm glad you eventually found your truth in life. I will have to give that article a read - sounds rather interesting .

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(December 10, 2019 at 12:58 pm)The Valkyrie Wrote:

(December 10, 2019 at 12:54 pm)CarveTheFive Wrote: Could a conscious effort make you believe other ridiculous shit?

If you tried could you convince yourself that Bigfoot lives on the moon or whatever?

Psychologically it is possible to convince yourself of something if you repeat it long enough and often enough.

We see this in action with the current Presidential admin. As someone who is in the field of Mental Health I find it fascinating! But obviously scary.

(December 10, 2019 at 8:11 pm)CarveTheFive Wrote:

(December 10, 2019 at 7:47 pm)Cecelia Wrote: Witnessing the Toxicity spread by religious folks.  Often in the name of their religion.

How does that make it seem less true?

Because it's incredibly obvious that religious texts were written by human beings with tiny minds and no understanding of the world.  Especially the Christian Bible.

I reckon I became an atheist as a result of consuming "Satanic" energy drinks.
At least that means I can quit whenever I want, I guess.

(December 11, 2019 at 12:47 am)Athene Wrote: I reckon I became an atheist as a result of consuming "Satanic" energy drinks.
At least that means I can quit whenever I want, I guess.

HAHAHAHA That video! I too have been a partaker in the Monster since I was about 13.

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(December 11, 2019 at 12:28 am)Cecelia Wrote:

(December 10, 2019 at 8:11 pm)CarveTheFive Wrote: How does that make it seem less true?

Because it's incredibly obvious that religious texts were written by human beings with tiny minds and no understanding of the world.  Especially the Christian Bible.

What's interesting is how often the Bible has been altered throughout history to fit a King's or even the Catholic Church's political agendas.