I was thinking about it recently, trying to section out why certain people join certain religions or believe in certain Gods. And I was thinking about the personal morality people accept and define for themselves.

Why join one religion versus another? I think it's because you personally don't agree with those other religions definition of God and morality. What if they were true? Is truth only the commandments you would reasonably tolerate from a God? Even within your own accepted religion, there are things that "God" could ask you to do that you would tell him "no" instead of obeying. If God pulled an Abraham and Isaac on you, would you do as he asked and kill your child? 

 If you said "yes" to that question...that's a different discussion. But if you said no, how can faith be defined as anything other than your own subjective morality? 

Would it change things if God himself came down and told you to do stuff directly? Could you trust a supernatural being that asked you to do something that you felt was morally wrong? What proof would you need to know that this supernatural visitor was God and not something evil?

A lot of people are in the religion of their parents. As for people who change their faith practice...seems to me not to be much of a leap in the case of one Christian denomination over another.

As for your question of how would you know if a supernatural visitor was god or something evil? I don't really see that as either/or. The god of the Bible did some pretty evil stuff.

(February 19, 2021 at 12:03 pm)Five Wrote: I was thinking about it recently, trying to section out why certain people join certain religions or believe in certain Gods. And I was thinking about the personal morality people accept and define for themselves.

Why join one religion versus another? I think it's because you personally don't agree with those other religions definition of God and morality. What if they were true? Is truth only the commandments you would reasonably tolerate from a God? Even within your own accepted religion, there are things that "God" could ask you to do that you would tell him "no" instead of obeying. If God pulled an Abraham and Isaac on you, would you do as he asked and kill your child? 

 If you said "yes" to that question...that's a different discussion. But if you said no, how can faith be defined as anything other than your own subjective morality? 

Would it change things if God himself came down and told you to do stuff directly? Could you trust a supernatural being that asked you to do something that you felt was morally wrong? What proof would you need to know that this supernatural visitor was God and not something evil?

Most people join the religion of their parents/tribe, not because they've taken an honest evaluation of that beliefs/gods morals.

In my youth (left religion at age 13) god never asked me to do anything. But a whole lot of Lutherans certainly did, some of them very silly.

I'm not sure what proof I'd need but my guess is that it would need to be something concrete and reproducible. Abstractions and arguments won't cut it.

(February 19, 2021 at 12:12 pm)arewethereyet Wrote: A lot of people are in the religion of their parents. As for people who change their faith practice...seems to me not to be much of a leap in the case of one Christian denomination over another.

As for your question of how would you know if a supernatural visitor was god or something evil? I don't really see that as either/or. The god of the Bible did some pretty evil stuff.

That is true. I have seen a lot of apologetics regarding the nature of God and the sacrifice of Christ that involve ignoring crucial evidence of his nature or reframing a "might makes right" ethics to be the best option.

People are generally indoctrinated into the belief system of their ancestors. Some become disenchanted with those inherited beliefs, they still cling to fascination of universal creator that holds their own preferred passion.

If the wish granting magic sky pixie were to manifest itself in my vicinity, I would kindly tell it to first pick the corn out of my shit, then to choke on a giant bag of flaming Walrus cocks!

Your religion or lack therof is largely a matter of chance and geography.

You don't see spontaneous conversions to religions that don't exist in a particilar gerographic area.

(February 19, 2021 at 12:03 pm)Five Wrote: I was thinking about it recently, trying to section out why certain people join certain religions or believe in certain Gods. And I was thinking about the personal morality people accept and define for themselves.

Why join one religion versus another? I think it's because you personally don't agree with those other religions definition of God and morality. What if they were true? Is truth only the commandments you would reasonably tolerate from a God? Even within your own accepted religion, there are things that "God" could ask you to do that you would tell him "no" instead of obeying. If God pulled an Abraham and Isaac on you, would you do as he asked and kill your child? 

 If you said "yes" to that question...that's a different discussion. But if you said no, how can faith be defined as anything other than your own subjective morality? 

Would it change things if God himself came down and told you to do stuff directly? Could you trust a supernatural being that asked you to do something that you felt was morally wrong? What proof would you need to know that this supernatural visitor was God and not something evil?

You're assuming that a god can't be something evil.   Just had to blurt that out.  

Religious faith is defined as a relative morality, not a subjective one.  A set of beliefs that unite a people, not just those things individual subjects communicate as moral intuitions.  People are very unlikely to hold a genuinely subjective morality - that level of individualism is rare.

(February 19, 2021 at 12:03 pm)Five Wrote: I was thinking about it recently, trying to section out why certain people join certain religions or believe in certain Gods. And I was thinking about the personal morality people accept and define for themselves.

Why join one religion versus another? I think it's because you personally don't agree with those other religions definition of God and morality. What if they were true? Is truth only the commandments you would reasonably tolerate from a God? Even within your own accepted religion, there are things that "God" could ask you to do that you would tell him "no" instead of obeying. If God pulled an Abraham and Isaac on you, would you do as he asked and kill your child? 

 If you said "yes" to that question...that's a different discussion. But if you said no, how can faith be defined as anything other than your own subjective morality? 

Would it change things if God himself came down and told you to do stuff directly? Could you trust a supernatural being that asked you to do something that you felt was morally wrong? What proof would you need to know that this supernatural visitor was God and not something evil?

Yes, "faith" is just that, the feelings one has wanting something to be true.

(February 19, 2021 at 1:05 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote:

(February 19, 2021 at 12:03 pm)Five Wrote: I was thinking about it recently, trying to section out why certain people join certain religions or believe in certain Gods. And I was thinking about the personal morality people accept and define for themselves.

Why join one religion versus another? I think it's because you personally don't agree with those other religions definition of God and morality. What if they were true? Is truth only the commandments you would reasonably tolerate from a God? Even within your own accepted religion, there are things that "God" could ask you to do that you would tell him "no" instead of obeying. If God pulled an Abraham and Isaac on you, would you do as he asked and kill your child? 

 If you said "yes" to that question...that's a different discussion. But if you said no, how can faith be defined as anything other than your own subjective morality? 

Would it change things if God himself came down and told you to do stuff directly? Could you trust a supernatural being that asked you to do something that you felt was morally wrong? What proof would you need to know that this supernatural visitor was God and not something evil?

You're assuming that a god can't be something evil.   Just had to blurt that out.  

Religious faith is defined as a relative morality, not a subjective one.  A set of beliefs that unite a people, not just those things individual subjects communicate as moral intuitions.  People are very unlikely to hold a genuinely subjective morality - that level of individualism is rare.

Beat ya to it.  

It was the first thing I thought of.

(February 19, 2021 at 12:18 pm)Five Wrote:

(February 19, 2021 at 12:12 pm)arewethereyet Wrote: A lot of people are in the religion of their parents.  As for people who change their faith practice...seems to me not to be much of a leap in the case of one Christian denomination over another.  

As for your question of how would you know if a supernatural visitor was god or something evil?  I don't really see that as either/or.  The god of the Bible did some pretty evil stuff.

That is true. I have seen a lot of apologetics regarding the nature of God and the sacrifice of Christ that involve ignoring crucial evidence of his nature or reframing a "might makes right" ethics to be the best option.

Almighty God does not need apologists on His behalf.  We will all come to discover, one way or another, that there is only one God and that He is sovereign over all because He made all things, natural and supernatural, etc (John 1:3, Colossians 1:6), and that He is in fact merciful, selfless, faithful, good, true and just. All things notwithstanding, He declares that He will have the final say.  "...Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.” - Hebrews 3:15

A subjective non-understanding of a person's ways does not make said ways in fact wrong.  

A word, if you care to read, on God's sovereignty and righteousness - 

"I am the Lord, and there is no other; There is no God besides Me. I will gird you, though you have not known Me, That they may know from the rising of the sun to its setting That there is none besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other; I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the Lord, do all these things." - Isaiah 45:5-7

“For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,” says the Lord. “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways,
And My thoughts than your thoughts." - Isaiah 55:8-9

"He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he." - Deuteronomy 32:4